indiana law would charge shoppers 10cents a bag

Personally, I don't see how they can determine how many bags you are using, unless you bag yourself, it doesn't seem very fair.
If it were me, I'd have them stuff them suckers as full as they could instead of the way some of the cashiers bag nowadays putting 3 or 4 items in one bag. What about the self check-out lines? What about the one bag I'm legally obliged to take when I purchase a double deuce of Bud Light at a package liquor store in Hoosierland?
It sounds like a great idea on paper, but the logistics of seeing it through are another thing altogether.

Then it is a tax (plus, that isnt the definition of a tax).

Well, it's a service charge. I'm not sure "tax" is the right word. In any case, taxation with representation is the way government works. If enough Indiana taxpayers are sufficiently exercised by the law, they have the right of the ballot box to try to oust the legislators who thought it was a good idea.

Agree with all of that (except the tax v service charge part, but thats semantics).

Using legislative initiatives, fees and even taxes to direct community behavior is an appropriate role for government, from the homeowners' mortage tax exemption (encourages home building) to tweaking interest rates (controls inflation) or increasing cigarette taxes (discourages consumption and, long-term, reduces medical costs through reduction of smoking-related cancers).

Disagree with all of that. Social engineering isnt an appropriate role of government and I oppose all of the stuff you mentioned.

"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men" - Declaration of Independence. Not sure how any of those secure rights. If you want to disagree with Jefferson (and Lockeians in general) about the purpose of government, thats your business.

[Robin Garr]

Disagree with all of that. Social engineering isnt an appropriate role of government and I oppose all of the stuff you mentioned.

"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men" - Declaration of Independence. Not sure how any of those secure rights. If you want to disagree with Jefferson (and Lockeians in general) about the purpose of government, thats your business.

Umm, you want to repeal the 20th century?

Jefferson and Co., and the Founders in general, did a great job of setting up a government. But it's just silly to rely entirely on the opinions of 18th century gentlemen in breeches and periwigs to run a 21st century world, without recognizing that times change and needs change with them.

Disagree with all of that. Social engineering isnt an appropriate role of government and I oppose all of the stuff you mentioned.

"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men" - Declaration of Independence. Not sure how any of those secure rights. If you want to disagree with Jefferson (and Lockeians in general) about the purpose of government, thats your business.

Umm, you want to repeal the 20th century?

Mostly, yes.

Jefferson and Co., and the Founders in general, did a great job of setting up a government. But it's just silly to rely entirely on the opinions of 18th century gentlemen in breeches and periwigs to run a 21st century world, without recognizing that times change and needs change with them.

It was nice of them to give us an amendment process, which we have almost entirely ignored. There are a couple of amendments I would like to get rid of, but at least the amendment process was followed. Most of the 20th century ignored that.

I recoginize times change. But I recognize genius from any generation. And Lockeian (that cant possibly be the right spelling, but dropping the e seems wrong) theory of government is still pretty darn good. Im not going to throw out the 17th century work of Newton just because Einstein had to tweak it a bit in the 20th century.

Are there some necessary 20th/21st century tweaks needed to Jefferson? Sure. But tweaks are all that is needed, the underlying theories are still sound. Human nature hasnt changed.

Oh, and I trust 18th century dudes in periwigs over 21st century dudes in expensive suits.

Also, to paraphrase CS Lewis poorly: You dont tell time with an argument, you dont debate with a calendar. In other words, validity is not determined by when you lived.

Umm, you want to repeal the 20th century?

oh man.... i do not know why but that just made me laugh.... one of the funniest things i have seen on this board in a while....

maybe its hilarious to me, because it is a thread about plastic bags and it gets into 18th and 20th century government.... whew, gotta love this board

$0.10 seems too high, at least for the flimsy, thin bags you get at most places.. In Germany it costs about 19 Euro cents for a fairly stable bag with handles that you can feasibly re-use. As far as deposits on plastic bottles you have to be careful. Some of the schemes in Europe are exasperatingly complicated for the average consumer and are essentially a very onerous tax and nothing else.

$0.10 seems too high, at least for the flimsy, thin bags you get at most places.. In Germany it costs about 19 Euro cents for a fairly stable bag with handles that you can feasibly re-use. As far as deposits on plastic bottles you have to be careful. Some of the schemes in Europe are exasperatingly complicated for the average consumer and are essentially a very onerous tax and nothing else.

I've lived in 3 states that required deposits on beverage containers. I never had a problem, other than a very minor inconvenience of returning them to the store/redemption centers. For me, this minor inconvenience is offset by noticeably less litter and some redistribution of wealth, since there never seemed to be a shortage of people more than willing to pick up littered containers for the deposit.

Which Kroger, Laura? All of them, or one in particular? (Edited when I realized that I read "stopped" as "started.")

Highlands Kroger, on Bardstown Road. We haven't gotten the credit at all this month. If other stores are still doing it, I'm going to press the point this week!

[Robin Garr]

Highlands Kroger, on Bardstown Road. We haven't gotten the credit at all this month. If other stores are still doing it, I'm going to press the point this week!

Well, I don't know, but I'll check the next time we go. We usually hit either St. Matthews or Dirty Kroger, but we don't go to Kroger in general as much as we used to.

Kroger here in Jeff doesnt have the 5 cent incentive anymore either.

I dunno, call it social engineering to for the scare effect, but maybe this needs to be a tax because many folks can't be bothered to do it for the right reasons.

Let Google be your guide:

• The U.S. goes through 100 billion plastic shopping bags annually at an estimated cost to retailers of $4 billion. (The Wall Street Journal)
• The extremely slow decomposition rate of plastic bags leaves them to drift on the ocean for untold years. According to Algalita Marine Research Foundation, these plastic bags cause the death of many marine animals (fish, sea turtles, etc.), every year when animals mistake them for food.
• When plastics break down, they don't biodegrade; they photodegrade. This means the materials break down to smaller fragments which readily soak up toxins. They then contaminate soil, waterways, and animals upon digestion.
• Refuse plastic absorbs pre-existing organic pollutants, including Bisphenol A (BPA) and polychlorinated biphenyls(PCBs).
• One study involving the Center for the Evaluation of Risks to Human Reproduction and a National Toxicology Program (NTP) Expert Panel has reported on effects of BPA on development. They found cause for "some concern" related to behavioral, neural, and prostate function effects on mammals. On the NTP concern scale, "some concern" rates 3 out of 5.

On the other hand, it's easier to just get up in arms about ten cents.

I'm just sayin'.

I dunno, call it social engineering to for the scare effect, but maybe this needs to be a tax because many folks can't be bothered to do it for the right reasons.

Let Google be your guide:

• The U.S. goes through 100 billion plastic shopping bags annually at an estimated cost to retailers of $4 billion. (The Wall Street Journal)
• The extremely slow decomposition rate of plastic bags leaves them to drift on the ocean for untold years. According to Algalita Marine Research Foundation, these plastic bags cause the death of many marine animals (fish, sea turtles, etc.), every year when animals mistake them for food.
• When plastics break down, they don't biodegrade; they photodegrade. This means the materials break down to smaller fragments which readily soak up toxins. They then contaminate soil, waterways, and animals upon digestion.
• Refuse plastic absorbs pre-existing organic pollutants, including Bisphenol A (BPA) and polychlorinated biphenyls(PCBs).
• One study involving the Center for the Evaluation of Risks to Human Reproduction and a National Toxicology Program (NTP) Expert Panel has reported on effects of BPA on development. They found cause for "some concern" related to behavioral, neural, and prostate function effects on mammals. On the NTP concern scale, "some concern" rates 3 out of 5.

On the other hand, it's easier to just get up in arms about ten cents.

I'm just sayin'.

I agree Steve. (and thanks for posting the info) I think it is going into a big enough issue that the over- use of plastic bags needs to be at least slowed. Some people just don't care about trashing the earth, others balk at anyone suggesting the introduction of new behavior. For me, reusable bags are easier to carry. I'd forget them half the time too until I hung them on my door (the way someone suggested earlier) It's just a matter of creating a new habit.

I think most of this is retailers offloading their cost to provide bags on to the public, this has the potential to save them some money in a business with very low margins.

I think most of this is retailers offloading their cost to provide bags on to the public, this has the potential to save them some money in a business with very low margins.

Well yeah that may be true as well. I'm OK with that. I'd rather my grocer make his profits that way than other ways that are snarkier.

[Robin Garr]

Here's a short think piece about a similar fee imposed last year in Washington, D.C. The Washington Monthly columnist felt the same way as a lot of you do when the District passed the law, but now he's a fan, convinced that it had a significant effect. Food for thought:

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archiv ... 027713.php