The People -- and the Shame -- Behind Our Food

Thanks for this thread, J.

It's interesting how different people read the same thing and get different interpretations. I read Dan's post and thought he meant that humans are adaptable and intelligent. People who like in hot climates, Mexico for example, will (in general) have become accustomed physically to the heat to some extent and also will have the knowledge that will help them prepare for being in hot environment better than someone who has not experienced it before.

It didn't occur to me to think he meant anything malicious by it until I read some of the responses. I still think that he was talking about experiences relating to a place rather than qualities relating to a race.

[Robin Garr]

It's interesting how different people read the same thing and get different interpretations. ... It didn't occur to me to think he meant anything malicious by it until I read some of the responses. I still think that he was talking about experiences relating to a place rather than qualities relating to a race.

At the risk of being repetitious, I want to restate my concerns because they go to how the forum operates as a community.

We're welcome to debate issues here, and folks have a right to take different sides, as long as we debate in a civil fashion.

My concern was not about content, it was about style. To repeat what I said: "'not your strong suit' and 'pretty goofy' do not represent the kind of discourse I intend to have in this forum. You're welcome to debate, but please cool anything that could even be interpreted as a personal attack. Now."

One common defense of slavery in the US was that African bodies were better able to withstand backbreaking labor in the sun. Just something to think about when making a similar argument.

I'm trying to put this as delicate as possible...

Simply because a person , due to their race and physical nature, is or isn't suited to a job/region shouldn't be used to guide a person's moral compass.

Mary Beth, thanks for being able to read and comprehend very simple sentences. I apologize to no one as I have no reason to. Robin, I'd almost say I'M offended by Becky et al implying bigotry in my words which, as Mary Beth ably points out, simply isn't there. However, I'm not thin skinned and don't offend easily. For the benefit of Becky I'll go through it one last time.

"Given the kind of heat these folks are working in, and for such extended periods, it seems to me that the growers, or the workers themselves are doing a pretty good job of looking after themselves. Mexicans generally know how to deal with heat."

The active word here Becky is "KNOW". It is not denigrating to anyone if I attribute the possession of knowledge to them. In fact it's precisely the opposite. You say you studied anthropology and yet you would deny its basic tenets? All people on the planet adapt to their climates through behavior, mode of dress, architecture, diet, and to a certain extent physiologically. That's Anthopology 101. Arabs wear thawbs and build domed houses. Eskimos eat blubber and wear fur. Canadians drink bad whisky and learn to ice-fish (see? I'm an equal opportunity offender) . It is not denigrating to Louisvillians to suggest they know how to deal with Ohio Valley style humidity better than someone from Phoenix.

All Mexicans, regardless of socio economic status or location are generally good at dealing with heat because ALL of them, at some point during the year, will be faced with it. Lots of it. What I was suggesting is that even if growers aren't all doing a bang-up job of looking after their migrant workers, the migrant workers themselves KNOW (again, possess knowledge) how to best deal with the harsh circumstances. For example if the growers aren't providing enough drinking water then they're probably shlepping their own. I only mentioned this because I was surprised that the incidences of mortality among migrant farmworkers was much lower than I would have guessed.

My problem with Gavin Newsom is that anytime someone says "the numbers are getting much worse (or much better) and then they don't actually give you the numbers…. that sets off my BS meter. He is essentially suggesting that the work of Cesar Chavez et al has been all for naught At least in terms of mortality on the workplace, I can't see anything that supports this claim. Justin provides us with overall ag mortality statistics which seem to indicate the vast majority of US ag fatalities are Americans getting crushed by machines in less labor intensive crop areas. Perhaps it is a national shame that Midwesterners are using their teenaged children in hazardous occupations?

"Shame" of course is relative. One could ask how the US stacks up against other industrialized nations. Japan, Canada, and Europe all get their fruits and veggies largely on the backs of poorly paid foreigners under harsh conditions. Norwegians generally don't ask how many North African children it took to pick their tangerines. The other big question is how does life as a migrant laborer compare to the life previously led in Mexico. I suspect the majority of migrants are formerly subsistence farmers driven off the land by NAFTA and Mexican ag reform back in the 90's. That means they've traded back-breaking and dangerous work in Mexico for back breaking and dangerous work in the U.S. The principal differences are probably higher pesticide exposure and the deleterious effects of life in the camps (assaults, rapes, sanitation, etc) vs living back home amidst the relative safety of extended family and friends. I suppose one could argue that Mexico has to an extent exported some of its problems to the US (displaced subsistence farmers) and reaped foreign exchange to boot. I'm not sure that makes it a national shame for us though.

FWIW I have long term chronic health issues from a high risk (and poorly paid) occupation in my younger days. Just because I speak analytically on a topic vs emotionally, doesn't mean I can't empathize.

Mary Beth, thanks for being able to read and comprehend very simple sentences. I apologize to no one as I have no reason to. Robin, I'd almost say I'M offended by Becky et al implying bigotry in my words which, as Mary Beth ably points out, simply isn't there. However, I'm not thin skinned and don't offend easily. For the benefit of Becky I'll go through it one last time.

I've composed and erased about six different responses to this post because each of my responses violates the civility clause Robin wishes us all to uphold. As DanB clearly cannot uphold the same level of decency, I can only hope that Robin will deal with him harshly.

DanB, I'm sure I am reading it wrong (my fault, clearly, and never yours!), but your post implies that Becky somehow lacks [the right] comprehension skills . Such an insinuation is beyond offensive. Thanks for doing Becky such a favor. Without you "go[ing] through it one last time," she'd forever lack the understanding to see why you are both clearly right and a victim of people's inability to comprehend correctly.

It's funny how Marybeth B's post was about how people read things differently, and, somehow, you were able to spin this into her acknowledging your intent as the only possible reading of what you wrote.

And I'm sure Becky implicitly calling me a bigot is perfectly within the local civility clause? Because she was very quick playing that card.

All Mexicans, regardless of socio economic status or location are generally good at dealing with heat because ALL of them, at some point during the year, will be faced with it.

What I was suggesting is that even if growers aren't all doing a bang-up job of looking after their migrant workers, the migrant workers themselves KNOW (again, possess knowledge) how to best deal with the harsh circumstances.

Everyone can deal with heat with the appropriate amount of water, shade, and breaks. If the farm owners aren't allowing for breaks it doesn't matter how well the immigrant know how to deal with heat.

You are also forgetting the other problems mentioned in the article.

suffering from sexual harassment, inadequate housing, lack of shade, and sky-high disease rates. .

When farm workers organize, they are threatened with deportation. When they complain to the government, they are so often ignored. When they try to defend themselves, they are fired.

Justin provides us with overall ag mortality statistics which seem to indicate the vast majority of US ag fatalities are Americans getting crushed by machines in less labor intensive crop areas. Perhaps it is a national shame that Midwesterners are using their teenaged children in hazardous occupations?

fatality rate of 25.1 deaths per 100,000 workers.

500,000 farm workers mentioned in the article.

Following the national average, that puts immigrant deaths at around 125 per year.

"Shame" of course is relative. One could ask how the US stacks up against other industrialized nations. Japan, Canada, and Europe all get their fruits and veggies largely on the backs of poorly paid foreigners under harsh conditions. Norwegians generally don't ask how many North African children it took to pick their tangerines. The other big question is how does life as a migrant laborer compare to the life previously led in Mexico. I suspect the majority of migrants are formerly subsistence farmers driven off the land by NAFTA and Mexican ag reform back in the 90's. That means they've traded back-breaking and dangerous work in Mexico for back breaking and dangerous work in the U.S. The principal differences are probably higher pesticide exposure and the deleterious effects of life in the camps (assaults, rapes, sanitation, etc) vs living back home amidst the relative safety of extended family and friends. I suppose one could argue that Mexico has to an extent exported some of its problems to the US (displaced subsistence farmers) and reaped foreign exchange to boot. I'm not sure that makes it a national shame for us though.

I guess if other countries are doing it, it is fine if we do.

FWIW I have long term chronic health issues from a high risk (and poorly paid) occupation in my younger days. Just because I speak analytically on a topic vs emotionally, doesn't mean I can't empathize.

Doesn't sound empathetic to me.

John I see that piling on and emoticon sarcasm falls within the local civility code. Just so you know why I feel comfortable in making such comments, I have spent extensive time in Mexico. As a young man backpacking, sleeping in the bush, hitch-hiking,, and generally getting on for a dollar a day or less. In recent times I've had the opportunity to travel there on business, staying at the nicer sort of places in Mexico City, and generally hob-knobbing with the well-heeled set in the technology sector. I've seen the richest and the poorest of Mexicans up close and personal since the early 80's. If you want me to bore you with the details of how they all deal with Mexico's heat in different ways, feel free to ask.

And before someone chimes in about how it's cold in the mountains. I've climbed Popo in January and slept in the bush in the Sierra Madre de Oaxaca many times in December and January.

Justin, the numbers aren't clear to me. I don't think you can simply divide by the national average when the largest cause of death by far is machinery. The migrant workers are mostly going to be doing the stooping and picking whereas U.S. workers will be driving the combine. That's what bugs me about the original blog. The claim is made that things are much worse than in decades past, but the author provides no evidence.

In any case I suspect long term health issues related to pesticide exposure and heat exposure are more relevant than the number of workers who actually die right there on the spot and hence show up in statistics.

23% percent involved machinery (includes tractors), 19% involved motor vehicles (includes ATVs), and 16% were due to drowning.

Assuming no immigrant worker has ever been killed by a machine or motor vehicle, or drowned. That still leaves 53 deaths per year. (42% of 125) What are these workers dying from?

I also wonder how many immigrant deaths aren't reported.

And I'm sure Becky implicitly calling me a bigot is perfectly within the local civility clause? Because she was very quick playing that card.

You're delusional...

And I'm sure Becky implicitly calling me a bigot is perfectly within the local civility clause? Because she was very quick playing that card.

You're delusional...

Thank you for your useful input.

Justin, I have no doubt there are unreported deaths. My issue is this. Blogger A makes claim X. Blogger A doesn't back up his claim with statistic Y. I'm a professional doubter and cynic. I make my living forcing other people to back up the numbers they're feeding me. I never accept any argument at face value.

Of all the organizations dedicated to assisting migrant workers, why has no one ever come up with any meaningful statistics? The CDC numbers seem low to me. But if they're much much higher, why hasn't anyone collected any meaningful data? Maybe it's out there and I just didn't Google hard enough.

BTW Matthew, as for Becky defending her heritage (nice edit), she had no reason to do so. I've said nothing denigrating about Mexicans other than accusing them of NOT being stupid. I suspect she reacted the way she did because I didn't react to the blog the same way as all the head nodders.