A Louisville City Market Tsunami

Pricing, parking, and fixed vendors would be my top concerns. I'm just imagining Lotsa Pasta, Mike Best's/Kingsley's, Highland Seafood/Seafood Connection, Choi's, Harvest Bread/Blue Dog, and Paul's/Creation Gardens all under one roof.

Just thinking out loud, I wonder what the response would be from the retailers you mentioned (and a few others that might not have been) should something like this every get beyond the "dream" stage of a few foodies. I could see reasons well established retailers would want to be involved and I can also imagine reasons they wouldn't...it'd be fun to query them.

Along the same lines, I could imagine some resistance to this concept from the farmers markets, neighborhood associations, etc...particularly if something like we are discussing was not located in their immediate locale. I can also imagine bib overall "Bubba' who grows 5 acres of 'Maters out in E-town (an enjoys making a pretty good buck for 'em at the local farmers market) NOT being real happy to share the same market with Achmed or Estevon who speak broken English, buy their fruit and veggies at the depot and who BT-freaking-W have -zero- interest in drinking coffee, kicking dirt and conspiring on prices with ol' Bubba before the market opens each day.

Steve, bouncing off your post, in my experience, once again in the Music City, they worked very well hand in hand. The perminent vendors knew the regular seasonal ones, and vice versa. It was a very well "played" team.

Steve, bouncing off your post, in my experience, once again in the Music City, they worked very well hand in hand. The perminent vendors knew the regular seasonal ones, and vice versa. It was a very well "played" team.

One would always hope this is the case...and I would guess that Nashville and Louisville have somewhat comparable community attitudes, at least more so than (say) Louisville and New York. So who knows.

I can also imagine bib overall "Bubba' who grows 5 acres of 'Maters out in E-town (an enjoys making a pretty good buck for 'em at the local farmers market) NOT being real happy to share the same market with Achmed or Estevon who speak broken English, buy their fruit and veggies at the depot and who BT-freaking-W have -zero- interest in drinking coffee, kicking dirt and conspiring on prices with ol' Bubba before the market opens each day.

It would be up to you, me, and everyone else to buy from Bubba (locals), regardless of his higher prices. This would be the only capitalist way of keeping the non-local produce/produce vendors out. It would touchy (maybe illegal) to allow only locals in and banishing the foreigners. I’m wondering if the local vendors could have booths that don’t have to be worked by them. Having some type of centralized cashier like typical vendor/flea market mall might participation more attractive to possible vendors. I’m sure there are +’s and –‘s both ways.

I would just like to respond to Mark about the Rochester Public Market: I agree with most of what he says, but disagree about who goes there. When I left in 05, every Saturday from about April to November was one big traffic jam - and those people who came were from all over the city - and a veritable United Nations of folks. And it's not in a Highlands kind of place, but in a poorer area on the other side of Main Street. The location is more like Smoketown than the Highlands.

Which brings up the question of for whom such a market would be. I fantasize, as privileged, hip, gentrified East Ender about its being in privileged, hip, gentrified NuLu... but the fact is that it should be in the West End or the South End (OUR UN area) or Buechel... Make the hipsters and privileged drive.

As for competition with neighborhood markets, I think that if it WERE in a less privileged area, the people who need it could get there easily and the people who want it could and would drive - or stay in their own 'hoods and go to the nearest neighborhood farmers' market.

And I love the idea that all those great local and regional products and shops would be represented. Anyone go to Kentucky Crafted last week and pig out on the array of Kentucky Proud stuff? Awesome!

Parking would be an issue, but what is going in the "former" Creation Gardens building.

It would be up to you, me, and everyone else to buy from Bubba (locals), regardless of his higher prices. This would be the only capitalist way of keeping the non-local produce/produce vendors out. It would touchy (maybe illegal) to allow only locals in and banishing the foreigners. I’m wondering if the local vendors could have booths that don’t have to be worked by them. Having some type of centralized cashier like typical vendor/flea market mall might participation more attractive to possible vendors. I’m sure there are +’s and –‘s both ways.

I'm trying to determine if this was a tongue in cheek reply or not. Personally I think it would be highly undesirable to keep non/local vendors out of such a market...or said a slightly different way, highly undesirable to require that all vendors are local and thus would sell only locally raised and/or produced products (it then becomes nothing more than a giant seasonal farmers market).

Here's how it appears to work at the Cleveland Market (and I assume others as well). Lets say you and I are both selling 'Maters (you be "Bubba" and I'll be Achmed) You sell only locally raised Maters and I sell Maters that I picked up at the depot. Depending upon the season, there is a good chance that the Maters I sell are equally good in terms of flavor and appearance but they are not "local". So you (Bubba) decide that you will price your product at (say) 2.75 a pound and you then put up a big sign that says "Locally Raised" Maters for sale - $2.75 a pound". Achmed (me) on the other hand just put up a sign that just says "Maters for sale - $1.90 a pound". What happens is that we both sell our product...(a) You sell product because they are good maters and because there are people (restaurants) out there who place a high value on this locavore thing (and I'll throw Robin's name out there just as an example) (b) I also sell product because I have a good tasting product and the fact that there are a lot of people out there who right-wrong or indifferent really don't give a rats a** where the stuff comes from as long as it's fresh, tasty and cheap. So who's the "winner" ? I dunno, maybe both of us are.

I'm trying to determine if this was a tongue in cheek reply or not. Personally I think it would be highly undesirable to keep non/local vendors out of such a market

Depending upon the season, there is a good chance that the Maters I sell are equally good in terms of flavor and appearance but they are not "local". So you (Bubba) decide that you will price your product at (say) 2.75 a pound and you then put up a big sign that says "Locally Raised" Maters for sale - $2.75 a pound". Achmed (me) on the other hand just put up a sign that just says "Maters for sale - $1.90 a pound". What happens is that we both sell our product...(a) You sell product because they are good maters and because there are people (restaurants) out there who place a high value on this locavore thing (and I'll throw Robin's name out there just as an example) (b) I also sell product because I have a good tasting product and the fact that there are a lot of people out there who right-wrong or indifferent really don't give a rats a** where the stuff comes from as long as it's fresh, tasty and cheap. So who's the "winner" ? I dunno, maybe both of us are.

Are you calling me (Bubba) a liar? (kidding)

I have no problem paying more for local products if they are truly local. I don't want to be lied to or tricked into a "local" product. I would also rather buy Florida tomatoes from Paul's vs. the same Florida tomatoes from some out-of-towner that is only in it for the money. However, it is like you said, some people just don't care where there food comes from. However, tomatoes at $2 a pound look reasonably priced when there are no other tomatoes in the game. As I said, pricing would be a tricky game. Competition would normally lower prices, but could also lead to the "dreaded" farmers market price fixing. Also, how many tomato vendors do we need? That is a different issue, how many of each type of vendor could be tolerated or sustained by the Louisville population. I have spoke to John H about these very subject. Bubba grows produce for fun, doesn't care to sell it for $1 pound and drives all the prices down. He pisses off all the other produce vendors and they pick up shop and leave. If they cannot make a fair profit, they are not sticking around.

Aren't our cultural perceptions fascinating? People who want home-grown, old-fashioned, natural food are seen as elitist and the ones who want corporate, chemical-filled products are seen as 'jes folks'? I have a relative, who was raised in the country, who has been so Walmartized that she won't eat an egg if she knows the shell was brown because it's... icky. How we have come to value the cheap and destructive!

That said, I kind of agree with my nemesis, Steve: bring it all on. Let us make our own decisions. Offer the better, cleaner, more right product for more and the less-than-desirable for less... and let us all decide. And maybe, maybe, those who think they are making the better, cheaper decision will see the value of the truly better, slightly more expensive decision.


Maybe the right place for a reminder about this tomorrow: http://forums.louisvillehotbytes.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9665

Some very good points made.

I wonder if (for example) the city of Cleveland, which subsidies the Westside market to a certain degree (not quite sure how) gets involved in pricing. My recollection is that most of the vendors (whether selling meat, produce or other products) have some type of competition in the market, in other words no one has the exclusive market for tomatoes. As an example I believe there are at least 3 or 4 stands that sell beef...some of it locally raised and some not but all butchered locally and not at the packing house. Again my recollection is that the prices are by no means "fixed"...that there might be a 40-50-60 cent difference in the price per pound. So I dunno.

...and John DID make a good point recently when he brought up the issue of "dumping" product to drive down the price. I think the way Cleveland addresses this is that the vendors all belong to a market association and therefore pay for the right to sell products. Then of course there is the concept of "franchising"...lets say the market agrees to let in 3 people who sell beef. So you sell a franchise to three people to sell beef and if anyone else wants to sell beef they've got to find someone willing to sell them the franchise rights.

The whole concept is interesting but exceedingly complicated isn't it ?

The whole concept is interesting but exceedingly complicated isn't it ?

Probably why were talking about a market and not shopping at one.

I have to laugh a bit at both Steve and Justin who repeatedly bring up this notion of "dreaded" farmers market price fixing. Yes, some markets have guidelines that try to prevent product "dumping" at the market. Im not sure where your "produce paranoia" stems from. We have had this discussion before ,so no need to beat a dead horse.
It was suggested that stores such as Lotsa,Mikes,Highland seafood etc.. would be nice additions to a "central" market concept. I agree they would be great, Im thinking the cost of staffing and equipment for another location would be prohibitive though.
I really like the idea of having both brick and mortar shops as well as local produced farmers market type vendors. I dont think the price difference between the two types of produce would be an issue. All summer long everybody has tomatoes in their yard,neighbors yard,Kroger,Wm,Meijers and road side stands..yet almost every tomato vendor I know sells out at weekend markets with prices in the 2 to 3 dollar range.
The issues I see are...
Location
What percentage of local to non local produce would be a good ratio
What percentage of produce/meat/flowers to prepared food and beverage would be a good ratio
Determine how to pay for the utilities/rent/taxes/insurance.. so forth
The last point I brought up is one I often wonder about...say the meat vendor has a walk in and open top coolers going. He is obviously using a lot more electric than the guy down the way selling onions and potatoes. Would every vendor have its own meters for utilities?
I also think it would be tough to draw the local vendors out of their respective markets. If you have been selling at the same place for years,its going to be tough to pull up stakes and move across town.
Id love to see a concept like this come to Louisville, but I dont think there would enough public support to get money from the city/state to make it happen.

I have to laugh a bit at both Steve and Justin who repeatedly bring up this notion of "dreaded" farmers market price fixing.

That was somewhat a joke on my part. As Steve pointed out, it is crazy how complicated a simple central market is. There are probably more issues left out than mentioned.

I can now see why nothing gets done in Washington.

I have to laugh a bit at both Steve and Justin who repeatedly bring up this notion of "dreaded" farmers market price fixing.

That was somewhat a joke on my part. As Steve pointed out, it is crazy how complicated a simple central market is. There are probably more issues left out than mentioned.

I can now see why nothing gets done in Washington.

Also known as the Economic Calculation Problem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_c ... ion_debate

I think the answer to most of the questions is that the organizers/owners or the market shouldnt try to answer the questions and just let what happens happen. Obviously certain questions need to be handled, but more along the lines of deciding the rent difference between a booth without electricity and one with.

The issues I see are...
Location

To me this is certainly the biggest problem by far. The place needs to have adequate free parking. Needs to be readily accessible from all parts of the community. Needs to be easy to find, etc.

What percentage of local to non local produce would be a good ratio
What percentage of produce/meat/flowers to prepared food and beverage would be a good ratio

I think the ratios will work themselves out over time. There's no need to try to set and control fixed ratios. Let the market determine what the facility and community will support.

Determine how to pay for the utilities/rent/taxes/insurance.. so forth
The last point I brought up is one I often wonder about...say the meat vendor has a walk in and open top coolers going. He is obviously using a lot more electric than the guy down the way selling onions and potatoes. Would every vendor have its own meters for utilities?

I think this is a lot simpler than you think. The fulltime brick and mortar vendors would obviously have their own utility meters and would pay rent just like they do at every other location. The rent like it does everywhere else would cover taxes, insurance on the buildings and grounds as well as interest and depreciation for the building.
The part time/seasonal vendors would pay rent for their stalls again based on the area they are using. It would cover the same things as the fulltime vendors just in a smaller percentage.

I also think it would be tough to draw the local vendors out of their respective markets. If you have been selling at the same place for years,its going to be tough to pull up stakes and move across town.

The only way to draw vendors would provide a place that was vibrant and had lots of potential customers. If you provide a place like this they would see the advantage to move there. You obviously cannot force them to move but you may be able to offer some incentives initially during the startup phase.

I'd love to see a concept like this come to Louisville, but I dont think there would enough public support to get money from the city/state to make it happen.

Depending on the location and the facilities already available there may not be a huge startup cost. I really think it may be easier to get some funding than everyone thinks depending on the $'s required and the enthusiasm of the people starting the facility.