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Amusing beer list

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Matthew D

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Re: Amusing beer list

by Matthew D » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:52 pm

Steve P wrote:
Rob Coffey wrote:Roger realized that being niche and appealing to your demographic is more important (and more profitable) than appealing to everyone.


Hmmmmmmm....Being "niche and appealing to your demographic"...OK, I'll buy that as a marketing strategy (or in Roger's case lifestyle), not so sure I'll buy the "and more profitable" part. Not saying I disagree (and hey, profits aren't everything when you're trying to create a brand or atmosphere), just saying I haven't seen any facts that would allow me to come to the same conclusion.

As a case in point we were out last summer with a relatively large group of friends (12 to be exact). We had our designated driver laid on and left the house with the idea of enjoying a full day (and night) of good company, good food and more than our fair share of liquid refreshments. Because two or three members of our party do not enjoy craft beer in the least, NABC, BBC, Cumberland Brews, etc were not included on the days itinerary...and thus did not benefit in any way from what in all likelihood was the better part of $12-1500 dollars spent that day. So, no, I'm not prepared to buy into the "more profitable" concept just yet.


I'm not sure about profit, but I wonder about loyalty.

You can get shit absolutely anywhere. It's in plentiful supply and just about any Tom, Dick, or Harry will sell it to you. And rip you off while doing it. Quality is another matter all together. People who value quality are probably loyal to those places that specialize in quality.

I'm fine with anyone who wants to drink a Bud Light. Beer taste is surely about personal preference. I just hope the person drinking said Bud Light does not tell me they are drinking that beer instead of some other beer (BBC, Stone, etc. etc.) because it tastes better. Most people don't know crap about taste. They know 1)what is the cheapest and 2)what is safe. Taste probably never comes into the equation.
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Joel Halblieb

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Re: Amusing beer list

by Joel Halblieb » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:39 pm

ya'll need to stop lumping people who make choices other than the ones you would make and/or promote as some kind of uneducated mouth breather.

Sure as soon as you stop drinking corn water and calling it beer I will.


"Think of all the money some of the local places (BBC and NABC come to mind) lose that refuse to serve lite (Macro) beers. I have a few friends "

Not much. Macro guys get dragged by their friends to such places. Lets be honest over the years I know BBC and Brownings have tried serving macros on the side, it is not worth it. Let me open your eyes a bit, there is next to zilch of a margin on macros and they do not sell at a Micro. Nuf said.

"I haven't seen any facts that would allow me to come to the same conclusion."

Probably need to keep up on the trades a little bit. Why do you think we have Budhook, Bud Island, and all the other once craft breweries now part of a macro portfolio, That would be double digit growth in the craft segment for 32 quarters. If craft were not taking a bite bud would not be buying. I admire your parties empathy for the folks who drink one brand for life.

Just my opinion, not that of my employer.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by Todd Pharris » Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:14 am

I love hoppy ales and rich, malty stouts, but I understand not everyone shares my tastes. However, not all local microbrew offerings are dark and/or bitter. For people who enjoy "lighter" beers, Cumberland offers a Cream Ale and BBC St. Matthews has something called Bluegrass Gold, I believe. I'd assume Browning's and NABC have similar offerings.

I'm a firm believer that no one should drink what they don't enjoy; but to completely dismiss everything that isn't Bud or Miller or Coors seems a bit bull-headed to me.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by Paul Mick » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:16 am

Joel Halblieb wrote:ya'll need to stop lumping people who make choices other than the ones you would make and/or promote as some kind of uneducated mouth breather. .


I, sir, am a mouth breather (at least in the Spring and Autumn) and wholly take exception to your insinuation that we are an uneducated lot! (We're merely an allergic one...) :D


Joel Halblieb wrote:Let me open your eyes a bit, there is next to zilch of a margin on macros


Perhaps, but someone still seems to think it's worthwhile to shell out a $10,000 bribe (err...donation) for each tap at Lucas Oil Stadium. There's got to be profit somewhere.

Joel Halblieb wrote:Why do you think we have Budhook, Bud Island, and all the other once craft breweries now part of a macro portfolio


Anheuser-Busch doesn't own a controlling share in either of those companies, so the decisions are being made at the same place they always have been. Bud just gets some of the profit out of it.

That aside, I've always thought Redhook's beer was a great deal at it's price point, and Goose Island is a fantastic brewery any way you parse the facts.

Have you ever had their Bourbon County Stout? Or their Matilda? Or their Pere Jacques? Their specialty beers are phenomenal. While their standard pale ale is not the most spectacular feather in craft brewing's collective hat, neither is it on par with a Bud Wheat.

As a person who loves great beer (and a mouth-breather) I would hesitate to demean them with the pejorative "Bud Island," even if a portion of their profits do go to that sinister entity.
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."--J.R.R. Tolkien
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Re: Amusing beer list

by Steve P » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:52 am

Paul Mick wrote:
Joel Halblieb wrote:ya'll need to stop lumping people who make choices other than the ones you would make and/or promote as some kind of uneducated mouth breather. .


I, sir, am a mouth breather (at least in the Spring and Autumn) and wholly take exception to your insinuation that we are an uneducated lot! (We're merely an allergic one...) :D


Paul,

Just so there's no confusion...that "mouth breather" line was mine from a previous post, he just forgot the "quote" part. I'd hate it if someone took "heat" for my <ehh-hem> compliment. BTW, a "mouth breather" is defined (loosely) as: someone who lacks enough intelligence that they never learned to breathe through their nose.

Joel Halblieb wrote:Why do you think we have Budhook, Bud Island, and all the other once craft breweries now part of a macro portfolio


Paul Mick wrote: Anheuser-Busch doesn't own a controlling share in either of those companies, so the decisions are being made at the same place they always have been. Bud just gets some of the profit out of it.

That aside, I've always thought Redhook's beer was a great deal at it's price point, and Goose Island is a fantastic brewery any way you parse the facts.


I just finished putting two "pony" kegs of "Bud Island" Honkers Ale through the home lines in the past month...I'd have to say it was actually quite tasty (as usual). For New Years I plan to tap a keg of Bud Lite for my homies who are so inclined, right beside a keg of something local and tasty for those of us (myself included) who lean in a different direction.

It's just beeeeeeeeeer people....and there is plenty to go around.
Stevie P...The Daddio of the Patio
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Re: Amusing beer list

by Paul Mick » Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:56 am

Steve P wrote:Just so there's no confusion...that "mouth breather" line was mine from a previous post, he just forgot the "quote" part. I'd hate it if someone took "heat" for my <ehh-hem> compliment. BTW, a "mouth breather" is defined (loosely) as: someone who lacks enough intelligence that they never learned to breathe through their nose.


There really wasn't any heat to be had! I was just feeling contrary, and my sinuses have been acting up for the last few days, so I decided to be difficult. I was hoping the " :D " would convey that, but perhaps I should have signaled it in some other way as well. I do know the typical connotation of "mouth-breather," but in my own particular idiom (just like Lancelot from Monty Python) I felt like riding to their (our?) rescue. No worries!
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world."--J.R.R. Tolkien
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Re: Amusing beer list

by Roger A. Baylor » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:44 am

Over the beers, I've taken part in so many discussions like this that I'm not sure there's anything for me to add. The territory seems to have been covered. The single "consumer preference" development that amazed and fascinated me the most during the past year did not have to do with beer at all. After we opened Bank Street Brewhouse, there were some who said they could not partake of Chef Josh's kitchen because we were not serving Diet Coke. Seriously.

But, now that I'm here ... following is an exchange recorded on my blog in 2007. The first section in italics is a comment I received, and after it is my response. I've highlighted one paragraph in bold.

While I understand your disdain for domestic megabrewery lite beers, I don't understand the commercial decision to ban them. In my group of friends, 5-6 couples, eating out and drinking beer is our primary recreation. Among those 5-6 couples, there is one spouse who will drink "good beer" and a spouse who will not (ever). My wife has tried many times, and has given up. Yours looks like an establishment we could really enjoy, but if my wife can't get her Miller Lite, we won't be there. It is a shame to let your opinions about mega brews reduce the amount of business you do. (Maybe you don't need it??) We'll just keep going to Za's and wonder about your pizza and beer selection.----

With all due respect … and from my personal perspective … the real shame is that one person’s opinion about the necessity of Miller Lite reduces the range of options that a substantial majority of your recreational dining and drinking group might enjoy exercising. If I understand your scenario, there are as many as 10 to 12 people involved in the group’s collective choice to eat and drink out, and yet the preference of just one of these people can make or break the choice of destination. Does someone else eat only Armour hot dogs, thus precluding any area eatery that doesn’t serve them?

That’s doubtful, of course, because almost no one willingly eats the same food at every meal. Sadly, beer is a different story, and my career has been predicated on the alternative of “my” brand of beer: Hundreds of beers and beer styles for every meal, every mood, and every occasion. While the mass market beer business in America is based on the reinforcement of brand loyalty, my business is based on helping to provide the beer consumer with the sufficient knowledge and skills to navigate the labyrinth of multiplicity, and catering to the consumer’s increased knowledge by means of an intelligent, superior selection of beers.

In my experience, there are perhaps five people out of one hundred who, for whatever reason, are entirely and utterly resistant to the notion of embracing the notion that there might be something fairly similar to the standard preference of their comfort zone, and in such a case, I’ve found that little can be done to help them beyond having available that single branded item, whether it be Lite, or Michelin tires, or Crest toothpaste.

I’ll readily concede that another 50 or more out of that hundred would prefer their everyday brand of beer, and if it is available, they’ll stick with their safety net as a default rather than explore. However, the difference is that with these 50 drinkers, if the default isn’t available, and they’re offered an alternative somewhere within the range instead, usually they’ll be comfortable with it and enjoy the change, even if they remain brand-loyal by instinct in most other cases. In other words, they can be taught to exercise different thought processes when patronizing our establishment.

I’d guess that maybe 25 of the 100 people can come to genuinely enjoy the numerous beer alternatives, to revel in them, and to become part of the regular returning customer base.

By this tried and tested reckoning, I expect to be able to please up to 95% of the beer drinkers who walk through the door, because even if their regular brand is not available, something similar to it is – and a compromise (if not more) is readily attainable. That’s why (the Public House) has Spaten Premium Lager on tap – it’s the largest selling guest beer in the house, precisely because most mainstream lager drinkers find it suitable – and also carry a mild golden ale in bottles called Reissdorf Kolsch. There usually are other choices, too, both on draft and in bottles. Our staff is good about suggesting these.

It comes down to a fundamental question: Why compromise everything that the business stands for in terms of choice and diversity just to attempt to please occupants of the five percentile, when the five percentile generally announces far in advance that it is capable of being pleased in only one way?

None of this is intended as disdainful. Rather, it’s simply an expression of the niche business principle that is the philosophical underpinning of what we try to do with beer selection. Consider that as a mass-market brewer, Miller makes Lite so as not to offend the majority of beer drinkers. Conversely, I’ve tried to construct a beer business knowing full well that this Lite-drinking majority possesses numerous outlets, while the minority of beer aficionados has correspondingly few. I’d rather have 90% of 10 frequent customers who know I cater specifically to them rather than 5% of 90 infrequent ones who can get their brand anywhere.

Rest assured that I know quite well what it feels like to go out into the world and not be able to get the beer I’d like to drink. Given that Miller Lite is served by 98% of Louisville area dining and drinking establishments, and three-fourths of these still haven’t heard the news that there’s a craft beer explosion underway, it’s almost certain that I’ve been disappointed far more often than those unable to buy Miller Lite in my pub.

Numerous times in my life as a “beer snob,” I’ve been a part of an extended group of 10-12 people, and have known from the start that the restaurant, bar or ballpark that we’d be visiting that day or night would have none of the beers I prefer. In such instances, it hasn’t made me overjoyed to be the one willing to compromise, but that’s usually what I’ve done – though not without taking the opportunity to try to educate the management. Some times I’ve had wine, other times a mixed drink, but most often I drink water or a soft drink and save the beer for later.

I’m genuinely sorry that your group can’t come to visit our pub and allow me the chance to introduce all of your friends to the many flavors and textures in the world of beer, but there are times when one must stick by his core principles, and this is one of them. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain them.
Roger A. Baylor
Beer Director at Pints&union (New Albany)
Digital Editor at Food & Dining Magazine
New Albany, Indiana
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Re: Amusing beer list

by JustinHammond » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:34 am

Joel Halblieb wrote:
Macro guys get dragged by their friends to such places. Lets be honest over the years I know BBC and Brownings have tried serving macros on the side, it is not worth it. Let me open your eyes a bit, there is next to zilch of a margin on macros and they do not sell at a Micro. Nuf said.


How about some support to back up your claims? No margin in Macrobrew, you have got to be kidding me.

125 - 16 oz beers per keg
@ $3.50 per beer

$437.50 revenue
$90 cost
$347.50 profit
That is an 80% gross profit margin, but I guess that is next to zilch.

You can walk into almost any bar and Bardstown Rd and they are selling bottled Bud for $3 or $4 a pop. That is how these places stay open.

The macros don't sell at microbreweries because they are not offered. I don't drink bud or any of its cohorts, but think micobreweries are missing out on revenue by not offering them.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by David R. Pierce » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:59 am

Paul Mick wrote:Perhaps, but someone still seems to think it's worthwhile to shell out a $10,000 bribe (err...donation) for each tap at Lucas Oil Stadium. There's got to be profit somewhere.


The profits go directly to the vendor/concessionaire not the brewery. Basically you are buying the right to sell your product. Is this legal? Probably not, hence the term donation which is usually called an advertising or slotting fee. I never understood why a brewery would buy a tap handle in a sports venue.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by JustinHammond » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:13 am

David R. Pierce wrote:
Paul Mick wrote:Perhaps, but someone still seems to think it's worthwhile to shell out a $10,000 bribe (err...donation) for each tap at Lucas Oil Stadium. There's got to be profit somewhere.


The profits go directly to the vendor/concessionaire not the brewery. Basically you are buying the right to sell your product. Is this legal? Probably not, hence the term donation which is usually called an advertising or slotting fee. I never understood why a brewery would buy a tap handle in a sports venue.


Who decides what the brewer charges the vendor for the kegs. There has to be a contract on the keg pricing and I'm sure the little guy is getting the shaft.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by Roger A. Baylor » Tue Dec 15, 2009 9:54 am

JustinHammond wrote:The macros don't sell at microbreweries because they are not offered. I don't drink bud or any of its cohorts, but think micobreweries are missing out on revenue by not offering them.


Craft/microbreweries came into existence owing to the conceptual inadequacy (i.e., utter futility) of macrobrews. Consequently, to offer name brand macrobrews is to contradict the entire craft/microbrewing ethos, and anyway, as already has been pointed out, craft/microbreweries brew items that are similar, like wheat ale, cream ale and Kolsch styles. In terms of margins, these are (shall we say) perfectly acceptable.

We're left with a relative minority of consumers whose brand loyalty restricts their olfactory tastes and vision. Why on earth cater to that?
Roger A. Baylor
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Re: Amusing beer list

by JustinHammond » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:16 am

Roger A. Baylor wrote:We're left with a relative minority of consumers whose brand loyalty restricts their olfactory tastes and vision. Why on earth cater to that?


Money and it would allow me to enjoy the microbreweries more often. I am in the minority in my group when it comes to taste in beer. I can't get my group to return to any microbrewery if they can't get their lite "beer".

I don't think it is brand loyalty that restricts their olfactory taste and vision, they just like the taste of lite beer. I have slowly converted 2 friends to craft beer, but it was a struggle. I fear there is no hope for the others.

If microbreweries want to stick to thier guns and only serve good beer, I can respect that. I just think it is putting a dent in their bottom line by limiting their customers.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by Rob Coffey » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:33 am

JustinHammond wrote:
Roger A. Baylor wrote:We're left with a relative minority of consumers whose brand loyalty restricts their olfactory tastes and vision. Why on earth cater to that?


Money and it would allow me to enjoy the microbreweries more often. I am in the minority in my group when it comes to taste in beer. I can't get my group to return to any microbrewery if they can't get their lite "beer".

I don't think it is brand loyalty that restricts their olfactory taste and vision, they just like the taste of lite beer. I have slowly converted 2 friends to craft beer, but it was a struggle. I fear there is no hope for the others.

If microbreweries want to stick to thier guns and only serve good beer, I can respect that. I just think it is putting a dent in their bottom line by limiting their customers.


Did you read Roger's whole post? 5%. That is what he is losing. And I think he gains more from the group who give HIM loyalty because of his willingness to stick to his principles. NABC is a long drive for my group, but we do it for a reason.

Also, as Roger pointed out, I have been "dragged" to way more places that dont serve craft than places that dont serve macros. Talk about places that are losing money because they dont cater to their customers.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by JustinHammond » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:46 am

Rob Coffey wrote:
JustinHammond wrote:
Roger A. Baylor wrote:We're left with a relative minority of consumers whose brand loyalty restricts their olfactory tastes and vision. Why on earth cater to that?


Money and it would allow me to enjoy the microbreweries more often. I am in the minority in my group when it comes to taste in beer. I can't get my group to return to any microbrewery if they can't get their lite "beer".

I don't think it is brand loyalty that restricts their olfactory taste and vision, they just like the taste of lite beer. I have slowly converted 2 friends to craft beer, but it was a struggle. I fear there is no hope for the others.

If microbreweries want to stick to thier guns and only serve good beer, I can respect that. I just think it is putting a dent in their bottom line by limiting their customers.


Did you read Roger's whole post? 5%. That is what he is losing. And I think he gains more from the group who give HIM loyalty because of his willingness to stick to his principles. NABC is a long drive for my group, but we do it for a reason.

Also, as Roger pointed out, I have been "dragged" to way more places that dont serve craft than places that dont serve macros. Talk about places that are losing money because they dont cater to their customers.


Yes, I did read the entire post and I don't think he was saying he is losing 5% by not serving lite beer. I take it that he is not catering to 5% of the people who walk through the door. How many people don't walk in because they can't get lite beer? Out of my group of 6 drinking buddies it is 50%. I would much rather go to BBC or NABC when we go on a drinking adventure, but we end up elsewhere, where craft and lite beer are both available. That is at least $1000 of revenue per year that is going elsewhere, just from my group of six.
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Re: Amusing beer list

by David R. Pierce » Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:53 am

JustinHammond wrote:
David R. Pierce wrote:
Paul Mick wrote:Perhaps, but someone still seems to think it's worthwhile to shell out a $10,000 bribe (err...donation) for each tap at Lucas Oil Stadium. There's got to be profit somewhere.


The profits go directly to the vendor/concessionaire not the brewery. Basically you are buying the right to sell your product. Is this legal? Probably not, hence the term donation which is usually called an advertising or slotting fee. I never understood why a brewery would buy a tap handle in a sports venue.


Who decides what the brewer charges the vendor for the kegs. There has to be a contract on the keg pricing and I'm sure the little guy is getting the shaft.

The brewer establishes a price to the distributor. The distributor adds their mark-up for overhead, taxes, profit, delivery, etc. and publishes a price list. Everyone pays the same price from the distributor. It doesn't matter if you have 20 handles or just one. Same price.
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