How are the streets and roads today?

Well thankfully the roads are clearing up especially with the sun out to speed up the process, but there are a couple of things I would advise caution on: tree branches and falling ice are one, I almost got creamed by a large chunk of ice falling off of a building earlier and have been watching large pieces fall from the trees. Also as the weight of the ice is coming off the trees, branches that had not fallen yet are starting to. I am actually scared to drive on Eastern Pkwy, I have witnessed a few smaller branches come down today. Also, there is a HUGE branch that has been severed from one of the larger trees hanging over the eastbound lanes of Eastern, about halfway between Burnett & Poplar Level. The only thing holding it up still are some of the other branches and I am afraid it could go at any point. I called the fire department who advised me that I needed to call 911 and report it, but with the city's resources stretched thin as it is I was told they couldn't do anything until it actually goes. My fear is that when it happens some cars could very well be taken out by it. I even called and told the dispatch for our service to have our units avoid that stretch of Eastern. Another issue that I have seen come up today (though this should not be a problem too much longer with the rapidly melting snow) are vehicles that are getting out on the roads for the first time today but did not take the time to clear off their roofs. One person reported almost getting into an accident earlier because of a large sheet of ice that flew off of a van in front of them, and an ambulance had their lightbar destroyed by a similar incident from ice coming off of a semi. Luckily it hit that high and not the windshield. Other than that, while out and about today all I had to worry about was being careful on some of the side streets that were stll packed with snow/slush.

My Saab has a "Winter" drive mode, which [supposedly] helps provides better traction and control on snow and ice, so once I managed to churn through the remnants of the storm on my driveway and got onto the roads, things weren't too bad....heading along SR 53 toward LaGrange, the roads are clearing and vehicles are moving at a near-normal pace....subdivisions and other lesser-traveled roads probably still pose some hazards....the LaGrange Kroger was not as busy as I thought it might be, probably owing to the fact that many remain w/o power...temps are supposed to moderate quite a bit starting Saturday, and the snow system forecast to arrive here early next week has [as of late this morning] been significantly downgraded...things are beginning to loosen up....

I ALSO lived in Upstate New York (a a term that, like many. has two definitions: one for people in New York City, the other for real people. For the City, Upstate means 'above 185th Street'. For the rest of New York, it's Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, etc.) I was in Rochester for the legendary 1991 Ice Storm (I have a video documentary of that storm made by a Rochester TV station ). Having just driven around Louisville a bit, and having lived through the Rochester storm, I have to declare it a tie. I was a teacher, and our schools in Rochester were closed for two weeks. Yes, Louisville is a snow and ice wimp (and idiot at times) but ice is so randomly intense and disastrous there's no way to compare its reaction.

We just got our power back after 55 hours without. I'm happy.

The roads are doing very well but the driver's as mentioned by others are the bigger problem. I wish those of you born and brought up in the south who don't have any idea how to drive in snow would stay home so that those of us who grew up in snow banks up north wouldn't have to worry about you. I grew up in upstate New York and a storm like this wouldn't have even caused school to be canceled. Of course the snowplow operators there knew what they were doing opposed those here who have no idea how to plow!

I think you are taking a Fox News "fair and balanced" approach to your reporting. I fully agree with you that the plowing is horrendous, but I'd argue that the roads are not the reason schools are closed. Unless those from "upstate New York" like to go to school sans electricity (which is probably not even legal), school would have been canceled.

I'm sensing some sarcastic hyperbole in your post, so I'll try to calm down my Louisville-side that always comes to the defense of my dear hometown.

To provide local context: until UPS threatened to pull all their business out of the city following the great snow storm of (whatever year it was in the early 90s), Louisville lacked the equipment to even put a dent in plowing the streets. The city very much operated on a "wait until it melts" approach.

The roads are doing very well but the driver's as mentioned by others are the bigger problem. I wish those of you born and brought up in the south who don't have any idea how to drive in snow would stay home so that those of us who grew up in snow banks up north wouldn't have to worry about you. I grew up in upstate New York and a storm like this wouldn't have even caused school to be canceled. Of course the snowplow operators there knew what they were doing opposed those here who have no idea how to plow!

After growing up here, then living in upstate NY, Chicago, and NYC, I've never quite understood why Louisville does such a half-assed job of plowing its streets. In Chicago and NYC after a snowstorm, just about EVERY street gets plowed, not just "major" roads. Plow 'em all, pay the workers a decent wage (and overtime), and voila! We'll have less craptastic driving from snow-averse Louisvillians as a result.

Joel, if you grew up in Louisville then you realize that we typically don't have the severity of winter weather that NYC, Chicago and other northern cities regularly experience -- plus, the fact that they are also larger, more populated cities and therefore require more snow removal equipment ...Louisville doesn't budget the fleet of snow removel equipment that all of us would enjoy having available -- but which may only be used to full capacity once or twice every several years. Do we have a ideal system? Probably not; but suggesting that we need to be on par with Chicago or New York, given the infrequent occurance of severe winter weather around here would be a waste of money in the long run....

Louisville doesn't budget the fleet of snow removel equipment that all of us would enjoy having available -- but which may only be used to full capacity once or twice every several years. Do we have a ideal system?

John, I fully agree that Louisville doesn't need the large fleet of snow removal equipment. What they have is probably adequate in terms of equipment. What they do lack is drivers with the ability to drive the plows correctly (and probably managers to tell them what to do) and the equipment is probably not the best that could be selected. If the larger trucks they plow with had wing plows they could plow twice as much with each pass on the wider streets and could plow the turn Lanes (which still aren't in many cases) without having to make another trip. They also need to realize salt is not the solution for everything. Brining before a storm helps but once snow starts to accumulate plowing is the only thing that helps.

I know that a lot of the schools here are out due to the ice, and the lack of power in so many homes, and in several schools as well. You can plow a road any way you like, but if the school has no power, its not like you can send them there. Don't blame the snow or the plows (or drivers). Blame mother nature and all the downed trees, power lines and transformers.

It was a particularly bad snowstorm in Chicago in 1979, an election year, that got voters so hacked off they voted for Jany Byrne for mayor after Mayor Bilandic seemed totally unable to cope. The whole city ground to a halt for days, unheard of now. And after she won the office she made sure that the instant it started to even look like snow, salt trucks and city workers would be on the streets waiting for it. I think it was after that we all pretty much started to take it for granted that snow and ice wouldn't be a problem. Everything really changed with that election.

A couple or so years before that, I remember a particularly bad storm with some record snow fall that pretty much brought everything to a halt for a couple or so days as well, and I actually walked a couple miles through snow-filled city streets to and from work because most many streets and sidewalks were totally buried in snow drifts. I think that was my first year as a college student living back in Chicago again, and it felt like a big adventure to me then.

[Robin Garr]

For the City, Upstate means 'above 185th Street'.

Heck, Ken, for some it means "above 14th Street"!

"If the larger trucks they plow with had wing plows" - I think you will see that most of those truck are not meant to be plows, they added them after '94. I am from Pittsburgh and sent quite a few years in NJ an WV, places that normally do snow well. I do not believe any of them could have delat with the ice and tre probelms any better.

Joel, if you grew up in Louisville then you realize that we typically don't have the severity of winter weather that NYC, Chicago and other northern cities regularly experience -- plus, the fact that they are also larger, more populated cities and therefore require more snow removal equipment ...Louisville doesn't budget the fleet of snow removel equipment that all of us would enjoy having available -- but which may only be used to full capacity once or twice every several years. Do we have a ideal system? Probably not; but suggesting that we need to be on par with Chicago or New York, given the infrequent occurance of severe winter weather around here would be a waste of money in the long run....

My point was that Louisville gets maybe one good 6" snowfall per year on average, yet we're not prepared for even that. We don't have to have the capacity that Chicago or New York has, but we don't have the capacity or ability to deal with what we actually get, so forget about being prepared for something worse (like this week's storm).

To illustrate my point, last night (Friday) I was walking my dog on my parents' street in the Highlands around 11 PM. As long as they've lived there (20+ years), I can't recall a single time that their street has been plowed. Fair enough, it's not a major thoroughfare in the least, so that's fine. But last night two plow trucks came through, to no real effect that I could observe. Now, you might say, that's great, but I ask what is the freakin' point of plowing less than a quarter-inch off a completely ice-covered street three entire days after the precipitation happened in the first place?

The answer is, there is no point. If Louisville was like other cities and more prepared, that street -- and every other street -- would've been plowed Tuesday night/Wednesday morning when the ice was still fresh (and the temperature higher). For some reason, the city doesn't behave like other cities do when they have a major winter storm. Now, if you've never lived anywhere else, perhaps you think how Louisville responds is adequate. I'm saying it isn't, never has been, and until someone in charge gets half a clue, never will be.

My point was that Louisville gets maybe one good 6" snowfall per year on average, yet we're not prepared for even that. We don't have to have the capacity that Chicago or New York has, but we don't have the capacity or ability to deal with what we actually get, so forget about being prepared for something worse (like this week's storm).

To illustrate my point, last night (Friday) I was walking my dog on my parents' street in the Highlands around 11 PM. As long as they've lived there (20+ years), I can't recall a single time that their street has been plowed. Fair enough, it's not a major thoroughfare in the least, so that's fine. But last night two plow trucks came through, to no real effect that I could observe. Now, you might say, that's great, but I ask what is the freakin' point of plowing less than a quarter-inch off a completely ice-covered street three entire days after the precipitation happened in the first place?

The answer is, there is no point. If Louisville was like other cities and more prepared, that street -- and every other street -- would've been plowed Tuesday night/Wednesday morning when the ice was still fresh (and the temperature higher). For some reason, the city doesn't behave like other cities do when they have a major winter storm. Now, if you've never lived anywhere else, perhaps you think how Louisville responds is adequate. I'm saying it isn't, never has been, and until someone in charge gets half a clue, never will be.

Preparation, though, does not come out of thin air. As Suzi has pointed out, many of the city trucks are not meant to be nor are they properly setup as plows.

This is truly a cost-benefit question. To be more prepared the city would have to spend money. I don't know how much money, but expenses would include more/better/proper equipment, proper training, proper oversight, etc. The benefit analysis would work toward answering the question "are these particular expenditures worth the benefit?"

The simple answer would be no. One 6" snowfall a year, for me, does not constitute a need to by all the equipment and training necessary to respond to such an occurrence. As I've noted previously, only after the great storm of '94 did Louisville and the state in any way begin to respond to the possibility and occurrence of snow. And I would be wiling to bet that such investments were made to appease the federal government (not happy about I-65 being closed) and UPS (not happy about the city and airport being closed).

Returning to the question of benefits of making investments in improving our city's ability to respond to that once-a-year 6" snow, the more complicated answer is maybe. Added benefits that go beyond merely making use of such equipment would include the elimination of the need to reschedule and run school ($), the elimination of the loss of revenue by public and private entities, etc.

I honestly don't know enough about economics to figure this out. The issue, though, should not be approached in regards to what other cities do. It should be approached in regards to what is best for Louisville. And, once and for all, we need to quit talking about this city's response to this storm in slanted terms - it was much more than a certain amount of snow. The presence of ice and the resulting electrical outlets would have challenged any metropolitan area, regardless of how useful and fancy their equipment was. If this storm had merely been a certain amount of snow, transportation would have been affected on Tuesday (by the original snow) and that's it. Big difference, when looked at in the proper context.

Louisville doesn't budget the fleet of snow removel equipment that all of us would enjoy having available -- but which may only be used to full capacity once or twice every several years. Do we have a ideal system?

John, I fully agree that Louisville doesn't need the large fleet of snow removal equipment. What they have is probably adequate in terms of equipment. What they do lack is drivers with the ability to drive the plows correctly (and probably managers to tell them what to do) and the equipment is probably not the best that could be selected. If the larger trucks they plow with had wing plows they could plow twice as much with each pass on the wider streets and could plow the turn Lanes (which still aren't in many cases) without having to make another trip. They also need to realize salt is not the solution for everything. Brining before a storm helps but once snow starts to accumulate plowing is the only thing that helps.

Mark, The reason plowing does not started till about 3" on the roads is once you start pushing plows equipment breaks down VERY quickly. Since we do not want to raise taxes to have a dedicated snow fleet this is a real problem. We use these trucks every day, they show their age quickly.

As for the abilities of the truck drivers, they don't get much practice at plowing so they tend to be a little rusty. Truck drivers turn over alot so you know what that means. Different area require different techniques. The urban areas tend to be tighter spaces and need smaller plows, also they use rubber cutting blades because of the larger # of manholes.

Winged plows are great at wide opens areas, with little traffic around the trucks. But they are relatively useless here.

Our real problem is we don't have enough people to keep the route run in a timely manner. On average it takes about 8-12 hours to run all of the snow routes. We can get lots of snow in that period of time.

BTW-- salt brine is used effectively by more municipalities every year for snow removal. The Ohio Dept. of Transportation is doing it. They basically flood the area with the same 2% brine solution to melt the snow.

Down off my soapbox now.

Mark, The reason plowing does not started till about 3" on the roads is once you start pushing plows equipment breaks down VERY quickly. Since we do not want to raise taxes to have a dedicated snow fleet this is a real problem. We use these trucks every day, they show their age quickly.
Winged plows are great at wide opens areas, with little traffic around the trucks. But they are relatively useless here.
Down off my soapbox now.

I don't want you get into a major discussion of technology for snow removal in this forum but I know of no area where equipment is used solely for snow removal. In upstate New York the same trucks they plow all winter pave roads, haul gravel or whatever the rest of the year and with proper maintenance they usually last 15 to 20 years! Wing plows would be very effective on any street wider than two Lanes especially with the lighter snows we get here, they're also very effective for plowing turn lanes (many of which are still not plowed) without having to make another pass. Louisville needs to learn how to plow snow smarter not harder for more expensively.