Yikes, what was I thinking?

I like it, Annmarie, I know your uncle's type. And they've always irritated the crap outta me, but I would take one of your uncles over a lot of other b-Sh*t artists anyday. There's a love of the experience happening when a jerk off like him (and I am being fecetious) commands respect while flirting with the staff to see will sing and dance the strongest. After all, in a lot of establishments, there are seasoned employees that appreciate the theatre of the job. Bravo!

Gary,

I just choked on my wine and it went up my nose.... Too much information, my friend.

I don't know about squatting but Psycology Today had an article about 10 years ago that mentioned that a pat on the back when the check goes down increases tips by 5%.

Not from me. Personally I find it offensive. I had a very nice, earnest Hispanic waiter at Los Aztecas keep touching my arm every time he came to our table to check on me and my friends at a recent lunch. In that case, I thought it was a cultural thing. I almost said something to him afterward ( but chickened out - my Spanish wasn't good enough to make sure I was understood)- that at least where I come from, American females don't appreciate this extra "attention" from waiters.

Deb

Deb- I was going to mention that I would never do that to a woman, but I erased it because it sounded so sexist. I knew I'd find a way to offened somebody with that posting.

I think all of it stems from a simple lack of manners in general. We suffer poor servers because no one trains anyone properly anymore. And it's not just restaurant servers; I've seen a deplorable lack of manners in many jobs that deal with the public. In my own workplace I witness rudeness on the phone, in business meetings even in the way we converse with each other. What I find so surprising is that these ill mannered folks are normally very nice, sweet people. Just lacking in basic manners because they were never taught. Some parents don't realize that good manners go way beyond simply saying "please" and "thank you".

Carla makes a good point. How can we expect the restaurant industry to be immune from a downward trend in society? Except the restaurant industry could be the last defense in this situation since its a part of the "hospitality industry". For me, part of the reason I "dine out" is that I can't be served like that at home. I know, I've tried! It's part of the experience that appeals. CD

It's not just the restaurant business. Customer service in general has taken a nosedive.

Completely off the subject of food, but relevant to the point about lack of customer service-
We've been having trouble getting our insurance company to fix our roof. They want to replace half, even though we have 3 separate estimates stating that the ENTIRE roof needs to be repaired, and it will be in the neighborhood of $4000. I figure we pay approx $900 per year, and have lived in the house for 10 years. We've more than paid for that roof. It's escalated to the point where I've had to go over the head of my adjuster. Her supervisor said to me yesterday "I'm sorry she's been rude, but what do you want me to do about it?" Pretty much the same crap I've heard from my insurance agent. "What do you want me to do?'" I want to say "Your job! Fix my damn roof!" They have been a colossal pain in my ass. I may have to call in an attorney, or the State Insurance Commission to get this resolved, and even then, I'm not guaranteed that my roof will be replaced. A lot of places don't care about taking care of their customers anymore, they just care about money, and it's sad.

Food and drink aside, where would you go most and why? CD

In several local restaurants since Sept., (. big, little or small, from Lilly's to Lou Lou's), I've noticed something. Rarely did the server or host/hostess for that matter wait for an opening in the conversation at that table to say something. Instead, he or she interrupted the conversation. What's going on with that? I waited tables through college and years afterwards at 610, managed Deitrich's blah blah blah....When I wanted to talk to the table I positioned myself in the eye sight of the person talking, made direct eye contact, folded my hands and waited. No pun intended Eventually the person I was looking at would steer the conversation to a stopping point and focus the group on me. I was with an English friend in Nov. who when the server interrupted did not stop talking. The server got the point immediately and waited for him to finish. But I, when interrupted, have always stopped my conversation to accommodate the server. I know things are more cas, I know that. For example, I know clearing plates individually is now considered efficient service vs. clearing the entire table at once which was thought to put less pressure on the last person eating. But eating/dining out is also a social event isn't it? Conversations at the table are important. Here's why I'm concerned. It was annoying. It happened more than once during the same meals. Often I couldn't retrieve my thought. And my shrinking budget is shrinking my disposable income/restaurant allowance. So when I do go out I want the experience to be great! Have I lost it, am I just a dining dinosaur? CD

I've been trying to stay out of this one, but I will say this:

How ever many customers share your point of view on this issue and also the clearing issue, whether it's the official proper etiquette or otherwise, there are just as many who disagree. Times have changed, serving has changed. Whether for the better or worse, I'll withhold my judgement. And whether servers changed it because they lost touch with traditional etiquette, or because times and customers demanded it is another argument. But these days, it can be extra tough because you have to gauge your customer. I've been snapped at for clearing plates as people finished and sneered at for not doing that very thing in the same night. As attitudes have changed many customers have more and more diverse opinions of what "should" happen with table service. I'd say that outside of a strict 4 star establishment, traditional etiquette is a fluid medium. I will also agree with the poster who said that a lot of etiquette went out the door the day the cell phone got answered during specials recitation or drink orders...I HATE that...so rude. That said, we are trying our best to keep up, and give you what you want personally. If you'd like your server and busser to wait to clear until everyone is finished, politely tell them at the beginning of the meal and then it won't be an issue...I think nowadays, most people expect the other way around.

Excellent point about serving styles/clearing the plates Jeremy. I too hate cell phones on the dining room floor. But if in public it's considered rude to interrupt is it okay to do so in a restaurant? That's what I'm asking. CD

traditional etiquette, to me, is certainly not a 'fluid medium'.
service expectations are now all over the place for a few very simple reasons.

a)there are restaurants out there that are wildly successful that know nothing of proper service.
b)there are customers who frequent said restaurants and come to accept said service as the norm.
c)there are servers out there who put their own personal comfort and view ahead of proper service.
d)there are customers out there who put their own personal comfort and view ahead of proper service.

as a professional restaurant server, it is your job to be the example. the bastion of knowledge and method. your approach and tone may vary from table to table, but your attention to detail, precision, and execution should not.
the guy in the dirty sweatsuit deserves the exact same service as the lady with the prada & 4 carat diamond ring or the gentleman with the bentley roadster parked out front.
it is not 'the job' to make your guests feel at ease, or to make small talk. nor is it 'the job' to be a stuffy, stiff automaton. it IS 'the job' to be a collection of knowledge, personality, precision, and consistancy that is put on display everytime, for every guest.
if 'the job' is not approached this way, then it is guaranteed that some guests will not be treated as well as others. and that, to me, is unacceptable.
when these traits are combined/utilized properly, the natural byproduct is a guest (way more often than not) that is left feeling comfortable, pampered, gracious, and eager to return.
god forbid that the guest may even learn a thing or two once in a while.

i am focusing mainly on fine-dining for my current rant, but i believe that there is a razor thin line between the willingness to go above and beyond at the drop of a hat and the staunch confidence that you KNOW what you are doing and talking about (which is not there as much as it should be) that is neccessary for one to be a truly exceptional server in any concept.

there's a quote from a charlie trotter book i read a few years back that i am sure i'm going to butcher for you now...
'there is ALWAYS an enormous lattitude for improvisation, spontaneaity. and common-sense resourcefulness on behalf of the entire waitstaff to achieve the perfect dining experience. but there are also rules.'

and one more aside. more of a peeve, actually. EVERYONE who serves gets the shaft occasionally when it comes to bad tips.
EVERYONE.
the nature of the job tells you up front, the day you apply for it, that 15% is ok, 20% is good, more is better, but there will be people that tip badly.
at the risk of sounding harsh... DEAL WITH IT.
if a server is anywhere near worth their salt, the good tips and regular 'ask-for-you-by-name' guests will FAR outnumber the amount of grinches one will encounter. it's perfectly normal to complain to oneself, one's colleagues or bosses. but in all honestly, i find it very hard to stomach, pretty much unthinkable, to complain out loud to the public about something that i knew would happen when i took the job.
in the current economic state we're in, i'd be a lot happier about making 10% or 12% of something once in a while than making 100% of nothing indefintiely.

Matt...I'm not really interested in trying to debate you point by point...though I easily could spend hours doing it. Suffice it to say, that I think you made a number of valid points and a number of points which were severely off base. I couldn't disagree more with a lot of it, however, I feel that I actually do live up to your opinion of what a server should be in practice, but I'm pretty sure you're referencing the other thread that I started a week or two ago since I didn't mention tipping at all in this thread. Let's just say that many servers ARE worth their salt, and suddenly when people are worried about the economy the first thing to go is adequate tipping. I don't feel remotely in the wrong for venting to people who I engage with on a regular basis about what I see as unacceptable behavior. Most people certainly feel comfortable doing the same with the tables turned on this board. If I was some random server whining out of the blue, I could see, but I'm an established and active member of this board, and I feel that talking about things like that are completely acceptable and kind of the point of this board. Clearly, you disagree.

I also think you took my point in this thread the wrong way. It's not a matter of dumbing down etiquette for a guy in sweat pants versus a guy in a Bentley, God I would NEVER do that...I don't work with any other servers that would do that. My point about etiquette becoming a fluid medium is an issue that I think is really a much broader, societal one. People act differently in restaurants than they used to. They are frequently more interesting, open, willing to ask questions and try new things, food-aware, and fun to talk to, but they are also increasingly informal, casual, rude, drunk, among many other traits. It's hard for me to not see the connection of an increasingly informal public to how table service ends up in upscale casual restaurants. If you wanna talk about 4 star table cloth, sure, there's a specific code that should be followed exactly. But the fact is the world we now live in does not adhere strictly to past tradition. Whether that's good or bad is your decision to make, but its a fact, and that goes for serving, teaching, winemaking, writing, cooking and many other activities and relationships.

As more and more people do things like answering cell phones at the table, performing sex acts at the table, getting too drunk and throwing up or fighting loudly at a table (all things I've witnessed in the last 5 years as a server) boundaries are being broken down. It's a two way street, and granted the server should be on the sidewalk, trying to be as polite and efficient as possible, but things change. I don't think servers sought to push things to a more informal state, I think it's a reflection of current societal norms. And this argument has much broader implications than just in a restaurant. Look at air travel, train service, retail, movie theaters and any number of other things that have changed. I believe that table service, at least in more casual settings tends to reflect the state of society, and right now there are a lot of very good and very bad things about what we as a nation consider acceptable behavior in public.

Matt...I'm not really interested in trying to debate you point by point...though I easily could spend hours doing it. Suffice it to say, that I think you made a number of valid points and a number of points which were severely off base. I couldn't disagree more with a lot of it, however, I feel that I actually do live up to your opinion of what a server should be in practice, but I'm pretty sure you're referencing the other thread that I started a week or two ago since I didn't mention tipping at all in this thread. Let's just say that many servers ARE worth their salt, and suddenly when people are worried about the economy the first thing to go is adequate tipping. I don't feel remotely in the wrong for venting to people who I engage with on a regular basis about what I see as unacceptable behavior. Most people certainly feel comfortable doing the same with the tables turned on this board. If I was some random server whining out of the blue, I could see, but I'm an established and active member of this board, and I feel that talking about things like that are completely acceptable and kind of the point of this board. Clearly, you disagree.

I also think you took my point in this thread the wrong way. It's not a matter of dumbing down etiquette for a guy in sweat pants versus a guy in a Bentley, God I would NEVER do that...I don't work with any other servers that would do that. My point about etiquette becoming a fluid medium is an issue that I think is really a much broader, societal one. People act differently in restaurants than they used to. They are frequently more interesting, open, willing to ask questions and try new things, food-aware, and fun to talk to, but they are also increasingly informal, casual, rude, drunk, among many other traits. It's hard for me to not see the connection of an increasingly informal public to how table service ends up in upscale casual restaurants. If you wanna talk about 4 star table cloth, sure, there's a specific code that should be followed exactly. But the fact is the world we now live in does not adhere strictly to past tradition. Whether that's good or bad is your decision to make, but its a fact, and that goes for serving, teaching, winemaking, writing, cooking and many other activities and relationships.

As more and more people do things like answering cell phones at the table, performing sex acts at the table, getting too drunk and throwing up or fighting loudly at a table (all things I've witnessed in the last 5 years as a server) boundaries are being broken down. It's a two way street, and granted the server should be on the sidewalk, trying to be as polite and efficient as possible, but things change. I don't think servers sought to push things to a more informal state, I think it's a reflection of current societal norms. And this argument has much broader implications than just in a restaurant. Look at air travel, train service, retail, movie theaters and any number of other things that have changed. I believe that table service, at least in more casual settings tends to reflect the state of society, and right now there are a lot of very good and very bad things about what we as a nation consider acceptable behavior in public.

you know what i think?
i think that the very last sentence of your post is one of the most accurate things i've ever read.
i think that i believe in everything that i posted previously, but that so much grey area is involved when opinions and ideals are discussed that its difficult to put finite borders on them. especially when so many scenarios can differ in soooo many ways.
i think that your response was articulate and concise. and that you expressed yourself and your opinions very well without taking things to heart, which i find to be awesome.
finally, i think that as vehemently as i stand behind my ideas, it is a very cool thing when two people with some very different views (and some like ones) can express themselves rationally without sacrificing what it is they want to say.
talking about the job is NEVER personal to me.

a wise, wise server i worked with about 1000 years ago told me once...
'it aint called show friends, baby... its called show BUSINESS'...
after a a rough shift where we had some words, while he was buying me a beer.

if you and i ever run into each other, the first one's on me.
maybe we could iron out some of these wrinkles.

OMG, do I agree about people on cell phones. It's such a huge problem. I think when it started out, it was more of a "look at me, I'm more important than you, I have a cell phone!" I know a lot of peoples' livelihoods depend on cell phones, but really? Is it necessary to use them in the restroom? Or at your kid's recital? Or during a movie? Is it really proper to be yakking on your cellphone in the lobby of an office building, so loudly in fact, that the receptionist can't hear to do HER job? The worst is when some tries to talk AT me whilst on their phone. I see this at restaurants the most. How can the server do his/her job correctly while you are being rude, just yapping away on the cellphone? It's a catch 22. If the server walks away, the customer will be angry, and if the server interrupts, the customer will be angry. Cellphones should be banned in public places, .

I've been in restaurants in other cities ( including Bardstown) where a restaurant has " Please no cellphone usage" signs on the table. Love it! If you are a Dr ( or parent) receiving an emergency call. you can put your cell on vibrate and go out into the lobby/outside to have your call.

Does any restaurant in Louisville have this policy?

DEb

One of my fav sites...........reminds me of Mom standing over me testing my knowledge of which fork to use or how to eat soup.

http://www.emilypost.com/

I guess a bunch of families lost their copy.

Mines a "car" phone while dining. No longer need to keep tabs on young ones. Everything else can wait.