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LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

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Steve Shade

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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Steve Shade » Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:06 am

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (WDRB) -- .




Louisville attorney Thomas Clay is not associated with the case, but provided some legal insight into what is seen in the video. He says by frisking patrons without probable cause, officers broke the law.

"It appears the actions of one of the officers -- who clearly had the word "police" labeled across the back of his shirt -- were illegal and unconstitutional," said Clay.

Clay said that if the raid was an ABC case and liquor license related, all police could do is ask customers to show I.D. and prove they are of the legal age to drink. If police believed there was illegal activity taking place at the establishment, Clay says a search warrant would have been necessary.

"They would have to go to a judge and seek a search warrant, they would have to establish probable cause that criminal activity was going on at these premises," said Clay. "That's what should have been done if they wanted to search these patrons."
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Adriel Gray

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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Adriel Gray » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:29 am

No warrant, means warrant-less searches were conducted. Anonymous ABC tip means no actionable suspicion of narcotics (or at least none we can see from the facts at hand). I have had police perform this same tactic of making the choice to be searched unequivocal, cloaking it as get searched, or go to jail. That is rarely the case in searches. Without a warrant with your name on it, the 4th amendment protects you from search of your person or effects. They need to have reasonable suspicion of a crime (which is not you being in a bar that is open to the public, no matter how scummy you think the bar is), or fear for their personal safety. Their is nothing "routine" about a search of a citizen, it always has to be done under these two extremes. The cop has to have a reasonable suspicion of you committing a crime (which going to Cahoots is not one), or they have to have a reasonable suspicion you could harm them with a concealed instrument.

Let's remove Cahoots reputation from this, would we react the same way if police had gone across the street and held Holy Grale's patrons hostage?
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Andrew Mellman

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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Andrew Mellman » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:48 am

A basic problem here is that we do not know the specifics as to what prompted the ABC "raid," or why they felt it necessary to request assistance from the police!

If it were a simple rumor of a potential problem, then I would agree with most of the prior posts. On the other hand, if undercovers had viewed underage drinking, or especially if they had viewed drug deals, and they had descriptions of the individuals, then it's easy to make a case that the police search was in fact legitimate as (especially for drug deals in the bar) they were in fear of possible danger.

That is why I said you need a court appearance . . . you cannot make blanket comments that this is illegal without knowing all the facts involved!
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by RonnieD » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:07 pm

Adriel Gray wrote:
I would be ticked if I went to a bar and had to get frisked to leave though. Just saying. :?


See, I go to bars in the hope of getting frisked... :lol:
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Adriel Gray » Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:20 pm

touche Ronnie. We know how attractive men in uniform can be...

I think the worry is that "transparency" and "police" rarely wind up in the same sentence together, and who watches these watchmen anyhow?
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Robin Garr » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:03 pm

Andrew Mellman wrote:On the other hand, if undercovers had viewed underage drinking, or especially if they had viewed drug deals, and they had descriptions of the individuals, then it's easy to make a case that the police search was in fact legitimate as (especially for drug deals in the bar) they were in fear of possible danger.

That is why I said you need a court appearance . . . you cannot make blanket comments that this is illegal without knowing all the facts involved!

Fair enough, Andrew, but I'm a little bothered by the conflicting stories. Was it a drug bust? Then why invoke ABC? Was it an ABC check? Then why claim it involved drugs? Was it both? Again, it comes back down to searching every individual in the bar without showing a warrant. Good ends don't justify sketchy means.
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Steve Kluesner » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:39 pm

If you are not doing anything wrong, why worry about being searched?????? I am sorry, I think you also forfeit your rights when you hang out in a place like that.....there may be a few people who get there rights violated but it is time to clean up this country.
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Steve H » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:48 pm

Steve Kluesner wrote:If you are not doing anything wrong, why worry about being searched?????? I am sorry, I think you also forfeit your rights when you hang out in a place like that.....there may be a few people who get there rights violated but it is time to clean up this country.


I'm forced to disagree. Americans do not forfeit their rights when they go to a particular bar. That's just crazy talk.
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Robin Garr » Mon Sep 15, 2014 3:50 pm

Steve H wrote:I'm forced to disagree. Americans do not forfeit their rights when they go to a particular bar. That's just crazy talk.

In the interest of a civil forum, I'll exclude the "crazy talk" part, but I'm on board with all the rest of this. When we give up our rights in the name of security, the bad guys have won.
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Mark R. » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:16 pm

Robin Garr wrote:
Steve H wrote:I'm forced to disagree. Americans do not forfeit their rights when they go to a particular bar. That's just crazy talk.

In the interest of a civil forum, I'll exclude the "crazy talk" part, but I'm on board with all the rest of this. When we give up our rights in the name of security, the bad guys have won.

Well then I guess they've won!! Just tried to fly any place these days or try to enter a governmental building. Everyone is treated like they are criminal until they prove otherwise. Metal detectors, briefcase, purse and package searches, etc. I do kind of agree with Steve K. on this issue, if you don't have anything to hide why should you worry about being searched so that something somebody is trying to hide can be discovered?
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Bill P » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:12 pm

The difference between airport/government building searches and warrant less searches is that I implicitly give my consent to be searched by entering those types of "secure" premises. I do not give my consent to be searched when I enter a bar or Trader Joe's or my favorite restaurant, or my home. See how that pesky "consent" thing, implied or otherwise, makes a difference?. So if we're gonna buy that if "they didn't have something to hide" argument, then I suppose it is not a long leap until we abolish judges and juries, since if they didn't do anything wrong, they never would have been arrested.

That type of logic is beyond my comprehension and frankly terrifies me and I'm not prone to being a fraidy cat.
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Robin Garr » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:56 pm

Mark R. wrote:if you don't have anything to hide why should you worry about being searched so that something somebody is trying to hide can be discovered?


First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by RonnieD » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:13 pm

I give my consent at the airport because I have no choice. It's forced consent. Consent or fly. That's like consenting to a sneeze.

There's a smidge of wisdom to the "innocent men don't run" argument, but I agree it is a slippery slope and it does NOT justify a police state. (it's not the same as "if he wasn't guilty he wouldn't have been arrested" analogy above, however, that's Argument by False Analogy)

They key point here is "was it a legal search?" If it was, then everyone was at the airport. If it wasn't, then it's time to go Ferguson on the LMPD.
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Robin Garr » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:28 pm

Bill P wrote:The difference between airport/government building searches and warrant less searches is that I implicitly give my consent to be searched by entering those types of "secure" premises.

While this is true, it has been true only in recent years - since the era of hijacking began in the 1970s for airports, ramped up after 9/11; only since 9/11 for many government buildings like Louisville's Metro Hall.

Given that this response was prompted by the terrorism of 9/11, and, in the eyes of many, is useless "Security Theater" that doesn't really accomplish much of anything, it still seems to come back to "the bad guys have won."

That, and the idiots who squeaked into the White House in 2000 were just a bunch of clowns until 9/11, whereupon they became dangerous clowns. :twisted:
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Re: LMPD raid/shut down Bardstown Rd bar

by Steve Shade » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:44 am

Bill P wrote:The difference between airport/government building searches and warrant less searches is that I implicitly give my consent to be searched by entering those types of "secure" premises. I do not give my consent to be searched when I enter a bar or Trader Joe's or my favorite restaurant, or my home. See how that pesky "consent" thing, implied or otherwise, makes a difference?. So if we're gonna buy that if "they didn't have something to hide" argument, then I suppose it is not a long leap until we abolish judges and juries, since if they didn't do anything wrong, they never would have been arrested.

That type of logic is beyond my comprehension and frankly terrifies me and I'm not prone to being a fraidy cat.


Agree 100% "a place like that" .. who determines it is a place like that. Maybe a church could be like that or cops could come in and search my home without a warrant if it was determined it was "a place like that" by a any law enforcement person.
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