Doc Crows tip pooling

the result of servers who simply don't see a need to share with the workers who support them.

I see no problem with the system.

Considering what recently happened with Lynn's Im amazed at the attitude's displayed here.

Mandatory tip pooling is illegal for a VERY good reason. Under current federal and state law if a person earns more than $30 in tips at any time during a month, thats right just $30 for the whole month, they dont have to be paid more than $2.13 an hour. Its called Tip Credit, and the employer in Kentucky can claim up to $5.12 an hour, even if the employee only earns $30 for the whole month in tips.

So a restaurant owner can enforce mandatory tip pooling, claim everyone in his restaurant including the cooks all make at least $30 in tips during the month (taken from the wait staff's tips and redistributed), and in turn pay them all $2.13 an hour.

And if you dont think that's not happening, then you werent paying attention to what happened at Lynn's.

Thankfully some states, such as Washington, have done away with these ridiculous Tip Credits and ensure that employers pay their employees, tipped or not, a full minimum wage. The rest of the country needs to follow suit.

The $30 a month is only used to see who can be paid the $2.13 per hour, if any employee's tips with the $2.13 per hour don't equal $7.25 per hour on average through a pay period, then the employer is responsible for making up the difference.
I do agree that everyone should make the standard $7.25 an hour.

there are several restaurants in the city that tip pool. Proof, Le Relais, Ramsi's.

It is not illegal to do so if the policy was established before the employees started working. If a server starts at a restaurant and that policy is in place...the server has no 2 feet to stand on with litigation; especially if they signed an orientation book with the rules in it.

there are several restaurants in the city that tip pool. Proof, Le Relais, Ramsi's.

It is not illegal to do so if the policy was established before the employees started working. If a server starts at a restaurant and that policy is in place...the server has no 2 feet to stand on with litigation; especially if they signed an orientation book with the rules in it.

Actually it is illegal whether the policy was established prior to being hired or not. The policy itself is illegal. Some rights you can't sign away.

If I sign a piece of paper saying you can kill me and you do, you are still going to jail for murder. This analogy was given to me by a State Labor Cabinet inspector.

I have seen lots of employee handbooks that state flat out illegal policies and rules, usually you are signing that you have received the book. Making you sign something that goes against state law makes the supposed contract null and void anyways.

Actually it is illegal whether the policy was established prior to being hired or not. The policy itself is illegal. Some rights you can't sign away. If I sign a piece of paper saying you can kill me and you do, you are still going to jail for murder. This analogy was given to me by a State Labor Cabinet inspector.I have seen lots of employee handbooks that state flat out illegal policies and rules, usually you are signing that you have received the book. Making you sign something that goes against state law makes the supposed contract null and void anyways.Rick Boman

I am basing my information on information my fellow co-workers received from the state when they filed a complaint with the state. Management won as they proved, with the state of Kentucky,without a doubt that we knew when we were hired about the pool AND the forced tip outs.

Actually it is illegal whether the policy was established prior to being hired or not. The policy itself is illegal. Some rights you can't sign away. If I sign a piece of paper saying you can kill me and you do, you are still going to jail for murder. This analogy was given to me by a State Labor Cabinet inspector.I have seen lots of employee handbooks that state flat out illegal policies and rules, usually you are signing that you have received the book. Making you sign something that goes against state law makes the supposed contract null and void anyways.

I am basing my information on information my fellow co-workers received from the state when they filed a complaint with the state. Management won as they proved, with the state of Kentucky,without a doubt that we knew when we were hired about the pool AND the forced tip outs.

They can't force tip outs, it can be voluntary and many places have a voluntary one. I can see your point of not having an incoming employee bust up a perfectly good system by not having them on board, but the employee always has the option to opt out.

If they are fired for that reason, then the employer has broken the law.

I worked at a place who had the forced tip out policies from the opening of it. The state and federal labor department was called in for various reasons. Handbooks were signed and the employer still had to pay back all of those forced tip outs and fines. The only problem is that the labor departments, state and federal take forever to get any results, thats why most people in this situation opt for an attorney.

Any decent employment attorney could have won in court against what you are talking about. The issue also crosses over to federal labor laws, because if it is proven that tipped employees where illegally forced to tip out other employees who don't make $7.25 an hour, then that negates the latter employee's $5.12 an hour tip credit towards minimum wage, effectively putting the employer on the hook for the other $5.12 per hour.

I don't have a problem with tiping out as long as everyone knows about it upfront and it is voluntary. I have worked at places where this worked very well, if a particular server didn't tip out, or didn't tip enough, then the bussers where slower at bussing their tables, the food runners would skip their tables, the bartender would put their drinks to the back of the line.

I do however have a problem with employees who don't get tipped directly from the customer, not being paid minimum wage, bussers, food runners, etc. Because it can cause alot of legal grey areas that some places use to their advantage.

I also have a problem with tip pooling, because it encourages mediocrity. Their is no incentive for a good server to do a good job as they will make the same amount as someone who is lazy.

Just curious, how does one prove that every server is "agreeing" to tip pool? If something is voluntary, then how do you show that everyone is freely volunteering to participate? It seems so odd to me, what can be done to me by the restaurant or staff if I just change my mind to not be a part of this pool one night? If they can't do anything to ensure I pool tips then do you actually have a pool?

Sorry the philosophy classes are showing.

Just curious, how does one prove that every server is "agreeing" to tip pool? If something is voluntary, then how do you show that everyone is freely volunteering to participate? It seems so odd to me, what can be done to me by the restaurant or staff if I just change my mind to not be a part of this pool one night? If they can't do anything to ensure I pool tips then do you actually have a pool?

Sorry the philosophy classes are showing.

It is a fairly uncommon practice and usually if you go to work at a "tip pool" establishment it will come out in the interview process. There are pros and cons to it. I for one never cared for it as it does lead to some animosity between servers and as anyone in "The Bizz" can tell you, there is usually enough drama in foodservice without needing any reason for more.
However voluntary tip outs are pretty much the accepted rule of thumb in the service industry and should come as no surprise to anyone.

I don't think anyone in the industry has a problem with tipped employees tipping out other employees. I have no issues with handing my bartender and busser cash at the end of the night based upon what I made.

But that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about tip pooling. Tip pooling occurs when the money you would have tipped out is put into a pool and then redistributed to all the people in those positions. Usually on a sliding scale of number of hours worked. Why is this a problem? Because it creates an environment of laziness. No one is motivated to work harder than anyone else because they will all receive the same pay. There is no incentive.

Now this becomes an even bigger problem when that tip pool is determined by a server's percentage of sales. This means that a server is now tipping out based on what they sold, NOT what they earned. If a server gets stiffed, they STILL have to pay that percentage of the check to the tip pool regardless of the fact that the server made no money off the table to begin with. In essence, the server PAYS to wait on that table in that situation. And that's just wrong.

But that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about tip pooling. Tip pooling occurs when the money you would have tipped out is put into a pool and then redistributed to all the people in those positions. Usually on a sliding scale of number of hours worked. Why is this a problem? Because it creates an environment of laziness. No one is motivated to work harder than anyone else because they will all receive the same pay. There is no incentive. .

Actually, I don't think that's what we're talking about here. As the one who originally posted the link and used the phrase "tip pooling" the confusion may be my fault. I think we're talking about "tipping out" bussers and bartenders, i.e., kicking them a percentage of your tips, as opposed to throwing everyone's tips in one big pot and then splitting them up equally. Other than maybe casinos where dealers' tips are pooled as a safeguard against collusion with gamblers, I doubt many, if any, establishments make a practice of tip pooling.

I've seen a few scenarios presented in this discussion that I would consider to be implausible. I highly doubt if anyone is claiming employees are tipped as a way to pay sub-minimum wage, leaving employees to take home wages less than an average $7.25 an hour. If an operator is doing that, they're either employing illegal workers or they're not going to stay in business very long. I'd be surprised if a server working a full shift at Doc Crow's, or Lynn's, for that matter, made less than $100 in tips.

The confusion might have been mine. I was just trying to clarify the difference between tip sharing and tip pooling. One occurs in almost every restaurant. The other is illegal. Sometimes the line between them is blurry.

But that's not what we're talking about here. We are talking about tip pooling. Tip pooling occurs when the money you would have tipped out is put into a pool and then redistributed to all the people in those positions. Usually on a sliding scale of number of hours worked. Why is this a problem? Because it creates an environment of laziness. No one is motivated to work harder than anyone else because they will all receive the same pay. There is no incentive. .

I doubt many, if any, establishments make a practice of tip pooling.
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You'd be surprised. Restaurants are always getting in trouble for the ways they handle tipped employees money. Ruth's Chris and Morton's come immediately to mind.

The confusion might have been mine. I was just trying to clarify the difference between tip sharing and tip pooling. One occurs in almost every restaurant. The other is illegal. Sometimes the line between them is blurry.

Tip Sharing vs Tip Pooling

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http://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1594&context=thesesdissertations

Can someone explain to my who tipping helps?

It seems to be a pain from the governmental, employer, employee, and consumer perspectives.

Worried about incentives for the workers? Pay them true minimum plus some determined percent of sales if you want. Commission on sales is similar to tipping but without the variance. If you want to give waiters X% and bartenders Y% and bussers Z%, then do that. I much more rational system than the tip system.

I would say that the servers in the top and even middle restaurants do very well on the tip system. No one is walking home making minimum wage. At my place they averaged $25-35 per hour. I know a few places where the servers are making $60k per year. Given the choice I bet they would want to stay on tips verse hourly.

I would say that the servers in the top and even middle restaurants do very well on the tip system. No one is walking home making minimum wage. At my place they averaged $25-35 per hour. I know a few places where the servers are making $60k per year. Given the choice I bet they would want to stay on tips verse hourly.

I guess the other question is: Would your employees prefer a consistent $30 per hour or the $25 to $35 that they make via a tip system? The risk shifts to you, which is why I suggested an hourly+commission system. In theory, if the new menu prices were done right and the commission levels were set right, they would still make $25 to $35 per hour and you would make the same profit too.

Obviously it wouldnt work out exactly that way.