NC study suggests that "race still matters" in dining out

Becky, I wish I were sitting across from you right now so you could see my face as I'm talking to you. You say the the lack of responses here on this thread is an indication that people don't like to discuss or face this highly charged subject.

Well Becky, I will tell you that in my opinion it is hard enough to talk to people online about benign subjects without causing offense. A subject this sensitive is almost sure to cause extreme reactions whether intended or not.

For instance, your own statement seems to damn everyone who viewed this thread and chose not to respond. Is that what you meant to do? Do you accuse all those who chose not to respond as being unwilling to discuss or face racism?

no, no, no.... not at all. i was just making note how even here among a group of close people that have known each other pretty well, for a long time, many still did not want to venture into the subject. i did not in ANY way mean to "damn" anyone at all. that is not my character and i would in no way call anyone out like that.

again i am not accusing anyone of anything. i was just pointing out how it is such a sensitive subject... even among friends, which is what i consider this forum, a group of online food interested friends.

thanks to the ever-succumbing-to-technology to go and totaly misconstrue my thought lol

I believe that most of the people who interact on this forum are among the most aware in this community and they don't deserve to be painted with a broad brush anymore than anyone should be characterized on the basis of their skin color.

again... that wasnt my intent at all. i have been a member here for a few years and i really respect and like a lot of the people here. if not.... i would have been gone a long time ago.

I grew up in southern Indiana. I spent the next 21 years of my life traveling with the military and after returning here to live, it is my opinion that the area I come from and live in now is among the most prejudicial of any of the communities I've encountered in my life. Becky, I can hardly stand to be around some of my own family at holidays because of this issue.

I am thankful that my children got to experience diverse communities before they were brought here to live.

Having said that, I also believe that labeling all bad behavior towards someone of a minority aspect as being prejudice is too simplistic and is itself unhelpful. I don't know you or your family in the slightest. I believe it is certain that you and your family do experience prejudicial behavior. I just wonder though Becky, do you assume that every time someone treats you in a manner that you find distressing that it is due to prejudice?

no i do not assume this.... but it does lead me to wonder, why were we treated in such a fashion? when things like this happen, i go over them, probably too much, trying to come to some justification.

I will tell you that if I'm in a restaurant and someone is sitting near and they are acting in a disruptive manner, I will likely move or ask them to cease the offending activity. This happens most often when parents don't require respectful behavior from their children in public. If I'm sitting in a restaurant near a family with children who are being loud and disruptive I am disturbed regardless of their skin color. Becky, if I asked you to moderate your children's behavior would you automatically think I was reacting to your children's skin color rather than their behavior?

let me ask you this.... why did you assume that my children would be disruptive? they are NOT disruptive, rude, loud, or misbehaving in a restaurant, we just will not have it. we have 4 children.... two girls 16 and 14 and two boys 3 and soon to be 5. We require respectful behavior from all the children at ALL times, not only in a restaurant. our girls are not allowed to use a phone, ipod, DS, PSP, XYZ or any type of device at the table, home or anywhere else. i always carry crayons/pencils and something to write on for my boys. house rule is "no toys at the table." and it goes at ANY table where they will be eating.

now i do have a 3 yr old... who will well... act like a 3 yr old. but he is not allowed to get up and walk around, get under the table, throw a fit, yell, nothing like that.

and i have a special needs soon to be 5 yr old son. yes, it is difficult dining out with him, for many reasons that have nothing to do with behavior.

you would never have to ask me to moderate my childrens behavior. we are strict, period. we wouldnt allow any silliness that is too often seen at tables with young children.

My point is, while there is plenty of prejudice in this world and this community, to blame every negative reaction, instance of poor service, or rude manners on prejudice is an unbalanced, provocative viewpoint and itself shuts down useful discourse and discourages positive interactions.

you are right... sometimes, it is just that. bad service. a rude person. but sometimes...... it is not. too many times i am left looking at my family and my heart in terrible pain.

Now, if you could see my face right now, you would know I'm not mad and I'm not trying to lecture you. I'm not assuming that you are not in perfect accord with me so don't you assume that this is an attack on you or evidence of my own prejudice. I have prejudices of my own and I fight to control them rather than be controlled by them. I am interested in hearing your reply.

I would like to sit across a table from you and your family while you tell me what you think. I believe that only when you can see a person's face, skin and all, can you hope to judge a person's motivations. Sometimes you don't even have to say anything..... sometimes you probably shouldn't.


and if you could see mine, you would know that i am not offended in the least. a good discussion is a good discussion and that is what i was hoping for.


Cheers Becky!

Excellent Becky!

I wasn't assuming your childred would misbehave. I was just asking a "what if." I am very glad to hear that you too believe in the importance of discipline and good manners in children. I believe that teaching children how to interact in society is one of the best gifts you can give them.

I am also gratified that you were looking for discourse on this touchy subject. It is not always the case as Steve pointed out. Sometimes people are just looking to make a pronouncement and are not interested in other viewpoints. I'm glad that's not you.

Lastly, when you believe you are being victimized by racist behavior I think you should try to point it out to those in charge if it's appropriate (safe). Of course that's easy for me to say. If I ever witness it, believe me I will address it myself and I think most here would as well.

Thanks for clarifying your position Becky. I believe you live on the sunny side as some like to say on here. You and your husband should come to the Fireside on a Wed night some time (I can't this Wed ) Bar side only if you please. We'd love to meet you. Cheers!
Shane

Racism sucks. Plain and simple.

I don't know why anyone would base anything on skin color when it has no impact on how you behave. Discriminating against customers in a restaurant or any other place of business makes no sense to me either. Money is one color and it all spends the same, why would it matter where it came from? What is the advantage of not serving a certain group of people? What is the advantage of limiting your ability to do business?

Just dumb.

The sad thing is racism is taught through deeds and words and it takes many generations of people realizing that racism is wrong and not giving it purchase for it to die off. Sadly, there are still many places where people are too afraid to let go of those prejudices. I grew up in a place where racism is still alive and going strong, but I was never taught that it was right or acceptable. I also saw how wrong it was for people to be treated a certain way because of their race. So while I know racism is a real and present problem, it has never been a part of my worldview. I just don't get it. I don't see the advantage.

It saddens me that we have not come farther. I want to doubt this survey's results, but it is probably spot on. It would probably be spot on here as well and in most places across the midwest at the least. That is sad. What is wrong with people? It would appear, that as the results of this survey, most Americans (surveyed) are still ignorant and still suck.

Well I have no problem talking about it. I've worked in this industry for 25 years and have seen the issue from all sides. If the question is does racism exist, then the answer is obviously yes. But I would temper that statement by saying that profiling has replaced outright racism.

Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, servers will size you up in their first 30 seconds that they interact with you. Yes, race and/or nationality play into that but there are other factors which play a larger part. Your demeanor, your dress, your speech. I would much rather wait on a well dressed black couple with good posture than two dirty looking rednecks in UK hats and "I Farted" T-shirts.

For me personally, I do my very best to keep my service the same regardless of how poorly I assume I'm going to be tipped. Admittedly, not all servers do this. It can be difficult not to become jaded towards certain groups of people after repeated negative experiences. But that's part of the job. You have to take the good with the bad.

And this is not just a black/white issue. Europeans have earned their bad standing. Especially UK natives and Russians. Louisville has seen an explosion in it's Indian population. Their tipping culture has been slow to adapt to western ways.

These are generalities of course. Not all all Russians, Indians, etc. are bad tippers. But as with anything else in life, if you see the sun rise each morning you kind of start to expect it.

And just as a side note... racism exists on the other side of the table too. An example that's fresh in my mind is of a local golf celebrity who stated he "doesn't like being waited on by ni**ers" As far as I'm concerned, that kind of thing should get you thrown out.

Gary, you're right.

It's just better on the soul when we approach things from kindness. I haven't paid attention to a tip (unless it's one way or the other) for years. Round up or down, I seriously won't notice. You'll come back and I'll treat you the same way, always.

Besides, some of my best guests are from some minority group. They find it refreshing that I could honestly care less- and I mean honestly care less. You could be the Queen of England and I'll still treat you like- the Queen of England.

It's so easy, just to let go of predisposition and simply treat everyone the same. The time spent all in a tiff should be spent focused on that mother or father, that lawyer or bricklayer.

And you sleep much better at night...

Personally I've never waited tables and my industry experience was 30 years ago in the kitchen. That being said I do know people who have waited tables for many years and the consensus opinion seems to be that the worst tippers are Indians, blacks, and the after-church seniors crowd (with gays apparently the best tippers). I believe it is quite well known that service industry people refer to blacks as "Canadians" as a code word for black and likely poor tipper.

So I guess the question is, do those with significant industry experience think there is a factual basis for these stereotypes? There generally seems to be a lot of sympathy here for servers when it comes to tipping issues. Does that sympathy evaporate when servers feel like certain ethnic groups are the worst offenders?

I've been in the biz for 21+ years, I have held every position from server to chef. I can tell you that alot of servers I have had the displeasure to work with do stereotype along the lines mentioned above. I remember several black servers who felt the same way about black diners as the white servers did. Talk about self-hating.

I will feed one stereotype, just because I have never had the opposite happen. When I served years ago, the gay/lesbian patrons always tipped better than everyone else. I don't know why, it was just that way. Also, the gay/lesbian servers I have worked with in the past were much more competent and gave better service on average than there straight counterparts. Not trying to start anything, it was just my observation.

Most kitchens I have worked in, but not been in charge of, paid white males more than blacks or latinos or women. I once worked for a latino owned restaurant back in the day, Spanish was spoken in the kitchen by the latinos and owner, but they still paid the latinos minimum wage and the white people $10 or more an hour. Some of the latinos I worked with ran circles around the white people, sometimes myself included. I was dumbfounded.

I can also tell you that at the Sports and Social Club,(purposely naming names here!!!) the managers didn't want me to put wings on the happy hour buffets because it would attract the wrong crowd, the words "Darker Element" were specifically used. I protested, reported the behavior to the higher ups, and nothing was done about it. Something I had to sign a sworn deposition on when one of my black cooks got passed over for a promotion and he got a lawyer. I quit shortly after that. The managers who did that are not with that company anymore, but not because of their racist actions.

I remember several black servers who felt the same way about black diners as the white servers did. Talk about self-hating.

Well, is it self-hating or rational economic behavior? If black servers feel similarly that black patrons on average will tip less, then they'll logically expend less effort and/or avoid serving those tables. Are their views irrational.... perhaps preconceived notions which have spread through the industry with no basis in fact? Or are they also acting on experience and personal insight?

If the stereotype is untrue, I would think that it would offer a sort of arbitrage opportunity. If some servers avoid serving tables where black patrons are seated, a saavy server who believes the stereotype is irrational, will gladly service those tables, hence increasing his/her total sales and therefore gratuities/compensation. Are then, 40% of servers so dumb that they can't comprehend what's in their own economic best interests?

On edit: Obviously it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Servers expect lower tips, give less effort, and then patrons feel slighted and give a poor tip and the cycle perpetuates...

Personally I've never waited tables and my industry experience was 30 years ago in the kitchen. That being said I do know people who have waited tables for many years and the consensus opinion seems to be that the worst tippers are Indians, blacks, and the after-church seniors crowd (with gays apparently the best tippers). I believe it is quite well known that service industry people refer to blacks as "Canadians" as a code word for black and likely poor tipper.

So I guess the question is, do those with significant industry experience think there is a factual basis for these stereotypes? There generally seems to be a lot of sympathy here for servers when it comes to tipping issues. Does that sympathy evaporate when servers feel like certain ethnic groups are the worst offenders?

Let me just go ahead and say it, and I really hate to even say this because it just sounds so terrible and I'm not trying to start a firestorm here, but servers do not like waiting on black people. There are a disproportionate number (compared to other groups) of African Americans that do not tip or tip very poorly and will run you ragged during a meal. As mentioned earlier in this thread groups of lunch-time women diners are about as bad.

Is this racism? I guess sort of, yeah. I don't know how much it is actually discrimination. Most servers I knew, including myself, always treated everyone with the same respect because you have to always assume you are going to get a good tip. Also for most servers these views do not make it out of the workplace although I do know people that probably legitimately turned racist from waiting tables.

I think probably the couple of factors at play here are the fact that as I mentioned there are a disproportionate percentage of poor-tippers in certain groups and when you are waiting on a table of <insert stereotype> guests, for example, and they don't tip it probably amplifies existing cultural stereotypes you already had.

Personally I've never waited tables and my industry experience was 30 years ago in the kitchen. That being said I do know people who have waited tables for many years and the consensus opinion seems to be that the worst tippers are Indians, blacks, and the after-church seniors crowd (with gays apparently the best tippers). I believe it is quite well known that service industry people refer to blacks as "Canadians" as a code word for black and likely poor tipper.

So I guess the question is, do those with significant industry experience think there is a factual basis for these stereotypes? There generally seems to be a lot of sympathy here for servers when it comes to tipping issues. Does that sympathy evaporate when servers feel like certain ethnic groups are the worst offenders?

Let me just go ahead and say it, and I really hate to even say this because it just sounds so terrible and I'm not trying to start a firestorm here, but servers do not like waiting on black people. There are a disproportionate number (compared to other groups) of African Americans that do not tip or tip very poorly and will run you ragged during a meal. As mentioned earlier in this thread groups of lunch-time women diners are about as bad.

Is this racism? I guess sort of, yeah. I don't know how much it is actually discrimination. Most servers I knew, including myself, always treated everyone with the same respect because you have to always assume you are going to get a good tip. Also for most servers these views do not make it out of the workplace although I do know people that probably legitimately turned racist from waiting tables.

I think probably the couple of factors at play here are the fact that as I mentioned there are a disproportionate percentage of poor-tippers in certain groups and when you are waiting on a table of <insert stereotype> guests, for example, and they don't tip it probably amplifies existing cultural stereotypes you already had.

As the statisticians like to say, you have to beware of the small sample size. And that's one route to a stereotype, right? Taking an experience with a limited sample size, generalizing from your findings (your experiences), and coming to a conclusion that's, at best, iffy and, at worst, spurious.

Much of this has to do with housing trends. We, either by choice or force, live by people who look like us, live like us, and think like us. But, most importantly, look like us in a very "what box do you check on your census" type of way.

When I worked at Tumbleweed I waited on very, very few African Americans. Very few. I worked there for 7 months. Given the number of African Americans I did wait on in this period, I would have had to work there for 10x as long to get a population number big enough to make any claims from.

You have to have a statistically significant sample size to make claims about prevalent practices. I think that's what Steve H was getting at when he said it's important to know how the study was conducted.

Edit to say: Those of you with 10 or 20 or 30 years in the business might have the experiences to make such claims. Yet, there are just so many factors that I think it's very dangerous to draw conclusions that point to one determining factor (race).

Also, statisticallly speaking blacks only earn c.a. 60% of what whites do. Those with less money are probably inclined to round down rather than up and this behavior is probably more noticeable if it occurs at a higher rate within one ethnic group. There could be a larger absolute number of whites being served who tip poorly but who are camoflaged by other whites who tip better.

You have to have a statistically significant sample size to make claims about prevalent practices. I think that's what Steve H was getting at when he said it's important to know how the study was conducted.

Yes, this is part of it. But I think the most important thing about survey based research is the survey itself.

What questions were asked?
How were they worded?
It's crazy how many times the results get baked in due to poorly worded questions or questions that assume the researchers conclusions.

Were they presented in verbal or written form?
Who asked the questions? (racial identity and dress)
These things can skew results like crazy, especially for sensitive subjects.

When were the surveys presented? Right after a hard shift? Or was it a slow night?
The strangest things can skew results. Tired, stressed folks don't fill out surveys the same as those who are well rested and relaxed.

And the last point is NEVER, NEVER accept a study that's a one off. The results must be repeatable and reproducible, if they're not, they we have a topic of discussion, not science.

This does seem to have developed into a more worthy discussion than I feared. Kudos, forumites.

BTW, if it's me working for tips, I'm going to look for economic class markers, like dress and demeanor, before race.

As the statisticians like to say, you have to beware of the small sample size. And that's one route to a stereotype, right? Taking an experience with a limited sample size, generalizing from your findings (your experiences), and coming to a conclusion that's, at best, iffy and, at worst, spurious.

Much of this has to do with housing trends. We, either by choice or force, live by people who look like us, live like us, and think like us. But, most importantly, look like us in a very "what box do you check on your census" type of way.

When I worked at Tumbleweed I waited on very, very few African Americans. Very few. I worked there for 7 months. Given the number of African Americans I did wait on in this period, I would have had to work there for 10x as long to get a population number big enough to make any claims from.

You have to have a statistically significant sample size to make claims about prevalent practices. I think that's what Steve H was getting at when he said it's important to know how the study was conducted.

Edit to say: Those of you with 10 or 20 or 30 years in the business might have the experiences to make such claims. Yet, there are just so many factors that I think it's very dangerous to draw conclusions that point to one determining factor (race).

I was in the business for the better part of a decade while in college, worked on the outer loop, st. matthews, downtown high end restaurants and chain restaurants probably 10 different ones total. Also have many friends still in the business. So that is my experience. I think its a pretty good sample size, for Louisville, KY anyway. I saw the same stereotyping song and dance everywhere.

As the statisticians like to say, you have to beware of the small sample size. And that's one route to a stereotype, right? Taking an experience with a limited sample size, generalizing from your findings (your experiences), and coming to a conclusion that's, at best, iffy and, at worst, spurious.

Much of this has to do with housing trends. We, either by choice or force, live by people who look like us, live like us, and think like us. But, most importantly, look like us in a very "what box do you check on your census" type of way.

When I worked at Tumbleweed I waited on very, very few African Americans. Very few. I worked there for 7 months. Given the number of African Americans I did wait on in this period, I would have had to work there for 10x as long to get a population number big enough to make any claims from.

You have to have a statistically significant sample size to make claims about prevalent practices. I think that's what Steve H was getting at when he said it's important to know how the study was conducted.

Edit to say: Those of you with 10 or 20 or 30 years in the business might have the experiences to make such claims. Yet, there are just so many factors that I think it's very dangerous to draw conclusions that point to one determining factor (race).

I was in the business for the better part of a decade while in college, worked on the outer loop, st. matthews, downtown high end restaurants and chain restaurants probably 10 different ones total. Also have many friends still in the business. So that is my experience. I think its a pretty good sample size, for Louisville, KY anyway. I saw the same stereotyping song and dance everywhere.

And in my 16 yrs of restaurant experience throughout the Louisville Area, I did as well. There's a lot of shame to this claim, and I learned to adopt Stephen D's philosophy early on for the duration of my tenure as a tipped employee, but the only thing that's news in this exposé, is the fact that it is an exposé. I hope enough people realize, though, that the times are changing every day and this will hopefully be a thing of the past sometime soon.

I appreciate the honesty of folks posting in this discussion. I didn't click on the link at first because I wasn't up for another meaningless, frustrating discussion. This is a good discussion.

It is very difficult to disentangle race, culture, class, economic level, etc. But however they are entangled, I appreciate the efforts here to deal with them.