Vietnam Kitchen

This is a constant source of frustration to me. Bitter is not my thing.

Bitter need not be your thing. As I've noted, for every bitter hop bomb, there are two or three styles that are not bitter. This is why learning about beer styles can be helpful.

To those who haven't been to VK before, or been in a while, I warn you; the hipsters have arrived!

I'm not trying to start a debate here, but the trend in the American craft brew movement is towards very hoppy, rather bitter beers.

This is a constant source of frustration to me. Bitter is not my thing.

Wow, Ken and Jeff you might want to put a little more sugar in your coffee and calm down a bit. I respect your opinions which seem to be you don't prefer bitter beer. As someone who generally likes most types of beer and prefers bitter beer most of all, I find your diatribes vs bitter beer to be nonsensical.

Ken, your statements seem to be presented as de facto. With respect, I believe that much of what you posted is actually your opinion. You're certainly entitled to that opinion but prefacing your opinion with “I'm not trying to start a debate here” and then representing your opinions as facts is quite the non sequitur.

Jeff, why does bitter beer frustrate you constantly? Are you often places where bitter is your only choice? If so, where are you drinking. I want to give it a go.

I invite you both to the beer pairing on March 1st at Louise de Francais in New Albany. I know very little about Biere de Garde but I'm thinking there won't be any bitter! Cheers

I invite you both to the beer pairing on March 1st at Louise de Francais in New Albany. I know very little about Biere de Garde but I'm thinking there won't be any bitter! Cheers

Shane, that's exactly right. We're still waiting for the menu, but I suspect that with the possible exception of one ale in an aperitif role, the courses will be accompanied by malty beers ideal with food.

As soon as I know the exacts, I'll have this posted separately.

Wow, Ken and Jeff you might want to put a little more sugar in your coffee and calm down a bit. I respect your opinions which seem to be you don't prefer bitter beer. As someone who generally likes most types of beer and prefers bitter beer most of all, I find your diatribes vs bitter beer to be nonsensical.

Ken, your statements seem to be presented as de facto. With respect, I believe that much of what you posted is actually your opinion. You're certainly entitled to that opinion but prefacing your opinion with “I'm not trying to start a debate here” and then representing your opinions as facts is quite the non sequitur.

Ha, Shane, you're a pretty funny guy (insert appropriate emoticon here to show that I'd rather be having this conversation face to face - over a beer! - but I refuse to use those things). I take my coffee black, thank you, when I can't have espresso, which is actually my preference. Take a look at my diatribe. Where do I say I don't like bitter beers? Where do I criticize bitter beers? I just said they're hard to pair. I'll concede that most of what I put forth as fact is actually opinion, including the difficulty of pairing bitter beers, though I stand by my post and would posit that it is industry consensus among most of the food and beverage people I know that bitter is hard to pair. Now that's objective also and represents anectdotal evidence more than anything, but I'd go further and say most of the reference material I have supports that, but that's why I said I'm eager to read Oliver's book, I want some beer industry perspective on it, and admit there's more I don't know. And actually, when I said

I'm not trying to start a debate here

it was my intention, albeit a clumsy one, to imply that what followed was my informed opinion (more on that in the reply below to Roger). I have a bad habit of taking a hard stance in arguments, and I knew I'd be up against some stiff competition here.

It's interesting, because I enjoy good beer and good food, but really don't understand much about the art of pairing them together.

However, I tend to enjoy my ignorance, and I simply eat food that I enjoy with beer that I enjoy, with no thought as to how they complement each other.

Savage, perhaps, but I have never been disappointed.

I went to an interesting Goose Island beer/cheese pairing, and numerous beer dinners at Sergio's, and enjoyed them very much, but have not really applied anything I learned.

However, I suppose I would like to learn a little more about beer/food pairings, even if it probably isn't something I will apply strictly to my eating/drinking lifestyle

I'm not trying to start a flame war, but this plainly is not an informed viewpoint.

While there are plenty of hoppy, bitter "anti-Keystone" craft brews out there, a cursory glance at the shelf of any local retailer reveals dozens of choices that are lower in gravity, malt-centered, and fermented with ale yeasts, the ambiance of which enhances food pairings. There are numerous ambers, browns, Belgian variants, session-strength ales, wheats and specialties that are neither hop-forward, nor overly alcoholic.

Let's get it straight, okay?

So here's how I see the record being set straight. I said I didn't want to start a debate, knowing full well what I was getting into - I concede that. I enjoy most of your spirited discussions here Roger, and most often am on your side (I say this since I don't often post in the fray). My post was not meant to be a veiled stab at you or your beers, rather what I said, at face value: a criticism of one aspect of an industry I'd like to see change. I like most of your products, and given the opportunity to hand-sell them, always do so, but truthfully, I rarely have to, since they sell themselves. You called me out as uniformed. Frankly, I think that's unfair. In my post, I was able to discuss the reasons I felt high gravity/bitter, heavily hopped beers do not pair well with Asian food, and think I aquitted myself well there, clearly not just as someone who doesn't like bitter beers or understand what drink goes with what food. I also mentioned specific varieties of American hops, not exactly the purview of a lay person. For the record I have been in retail sales of wine, beer and spirits for well over a decade, 8 years of which I was the go-to guy at the wine shop I worked at in Chicago when our beer buyer wasn't present since I was the only other person on staff to have tasted our entire inventory of beer.

I would never argue that there isn't great diversity in the American craft beer movement. I am talking about a trend, one which I take umbrage with. There are multiple trends in the craft beer scene, some of which I look favorably upon. But here's what I propose. You tell me what you've got on tap at Rich-O's right now (I suppose I could do this myself on your website, since I am one of those losers that uses the Minton closure as an excuse for not coming over there as often as I should). Exclude the imports, since we're arguing about American craft beers. Or we could choose the Grale, Sergio's, Beer Store, heck even Nachbar. Beer-centric establishment of your choice. How many are hop forward and/or high gravity? Further, how many of the American craft takes on ambers, browns, Belgian variants, session-strength ales, wheats and specialties have ibu's in excess of the classic Old World examples of those styles? My guess, not actually looking at what's there,is the majority meet my criticism. Or at least a strong plurality. Now that's veering into subjective territory, but at least we could look at ibu's and compare numbers. I think my point will stand up.

The American craft beer movement is still at a relatively young stage. I think that the easiest way to introduce craft beer was to offer a style of beer vastly different than what was available. For example, say they did a fine example of an American Lager or Wheat, 2 styles that are not my favorite, personally, but I certainly wouldn't begrudge others for enjoying.

Would those beers differentiate themselves enough to change the longstanding habits of a Bud/Miller/Coors fan?

I, personally, have found a very recent trend away from huge hops, and would definitely say that more Craft brewers are putting out a wider variety of beers and paying attention to styles that were once-neglected.

I like most styles of beer, provided that they are good examples of that style, which is of course subjective. To be honest, I personally like big beers the best, whether they be IPA, stout, or my preference, big Belgians. And my favorite beers don't usually pair perfectly with food, because they do so much to the palate on their own.

But I still enjoy them together because I'm unrefined

#1 rule of food and beverage pairing: drink what you like with what you like to eat. So you're already there Dan.

Ha, Shane, you're a pretty funny guy (insert appropriate emoticon here to show that I'd rather be having this conversation face to face - over a beer! - but I refuse to use those things). I take my coffee black, thank you, when I can't have espresso, which is actually my preference.

Ken, I'd love to have a beer with you and I'm way funnier after everyone's had a few. I do respect your opinion here and I'm a session beer advocate so there's common ground.

Like Dan E, I drink the beer I like with the food I like without regard to how they complement each other. As unrefined as that may be, it's what makes me happy.

I would love to meet you and Dan E and Jeff, hell all of the serious beer drinkers on this forum should do an off site at Richo's one of these days. I don't know a Sorachi Ace from a Fuggle but I can buy a round as well as the next guy. Cheers

#1 rule of food and beverage pairing: drink what you like with what you like to eat. So you're already there Dan.

To follow this rule is to concede that Americans might as well be drinking Dudweiser with turkey franks. Nope, not buying it. If this discussion is based on "if it feels good, do it, irrespective of ignorance," then it is not a discussion worth having.

My post was not meant to be a veiled stab at you or your beers, rather what I said, at face value: a criticism of one aspect of an industry I'd like to see change.

I did not take it as such, and I was not answering based on my own beers.

How many are hop forward and/or high gravity? Further, how many of the American craft takes on ambers, browns, Belgian variants, session-strength ales, wheats and specialties have ibu's in excess of the classic Old World examples of those styles? My guess, not actually looking at what's there,is the majority meet my criticism. Or at least a strong plurality. Now that's veering into subjective territory, but at least we could look at ibu's and compare numbers.

Why are we looking at IBU's as the basis of this discussion?

It's interesting, because I enjoy good beer and good food, but really don't understand much about the art of pairing them together.

I have approached my legislator numerous times about introducing State legislation to make it a (Gross) misdemeanor to use the words "beer" and "pairing" in the same sentence. Alas I'm not making much headway as he is a hard-core Baptist and -only- drinks Micholob Ultra in his basement...and only with the lights out.

However, I tend to enjoy my ignorance, and I simply eat food that I enjoy with beer that I enjoy, with no thought as to how they complement each other.

God I love ignorance. I call it uneducated bliss and revel in it whenever possible.

How many are hop forward and/or high gravity? Further, how many of the American craft takes on ambers, browns, Belgian variants, session-strength ales, wheats and specialties have ibu's in excess of the classic Old World examples of those styles? My guess, not actually looking at what's there,is the majority meet my criticism. Or at least a strong plurality. Now that's veering into subjective territory, but at least we could look at ibu's and compare numbers.

Why are we looking at IBU's as the basis of this discussion?

Yeah, comparing IBU's is a false trail. It doesn't seem to matter how high the IBU's are if the beer is balanced it will not taste bitter overall. Many beers with a bitter taste profile are only in the 30's as far as IBU's (Beaks I think falls into this range). I think Flat 12's Half Cycle IPA is 105 IBU's. It is bitter! I would have said that NABC's Wet Knob seasonal was similar in taste profile but Roger said that it's IBU's was below fifty. At this moment I'm drinking a Franziskaner Weissbier (thanks Dan from Frankfurt). It's bitter compared to American wheat beers but has a residual sweetness at the same time. All the reviews say it tastes of banana. I don't really get that. But what the hell whatever. You got to taste them. Not just an ounce or two either.

Roger, I'm coming to Bank St for lunch on Tuesday for the Creole concoction with sausage, shrimp, crawfish. I'm planning to drink a Beak's with it because that's what I like. Is that wrong?
Cheers