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Thoughts on tipping

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Sean M

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Thoughts on tipping

by Sean M » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:12 pm

Wondering out loud: Why are tips based on a percentage of your total bill? To expand further, why should a server who provides excellent service to a family of four dining at Vincenzo's reap a more generous reward than a server who provides the same excellent service to a family of four dining at Frisch's? In either case, both servers are providing the same exact service in the same way, and are exerting the same effort. Why does one deserve to get a larger reward than the other? One would think that a specific service (in this instance the act of taking orders, bringing the food, refilling drinks, clearing plates, etc.) would have a fairly consistent value associated with it, regardless of the location it's being performed (in the same city, anyway).

Of course the obvious answer is that no one wants to go out to eat and pay more for their service than for their food. But it still seems odd to me, that two people could be doing the same exact job in two buildings within a couple miles of each other and both could experience such different results. What's worse is that the server at a cheaper restaurant could be doing a consistently better job than a server at a more expensive place and could still easily wind up worse off financially. Doesn't seem fair at all.

I've always found tipping to be a pretty awkward thing anyway. I'd much rather see restaurants pay their servers a fair wage and encourage them to do the best possible job. If I ever ran a restaurant, I'd want to own the process for rewarding my employees for excellent service --- not place that responsibility in the hands of customers. It wouldn't be difficult to figure out who's consistently doing a good job and who isn't, and to pay out accordingly. I think it would be interesting to run a restaurant that tells customers up front that they don't have to worry about tipping because the servers are paid fairly in the first place. If the only way you can get food in my restaurant is by having my servers bring it to you, why should you be expected to pay extra for that? It's not like I'm giving you a choice. You should be able to come in, relax, enjoy your meal and service, and pay a fair price for the food you just ate --- I'll work out how my income is distributed to the people behind the scenes. In a perfect world, no one would ever have to solve a math problem at the end of a good meal.

Finally, why is it that tipping seems to have become confined to just a select few occupations? You get a tip if you carry my food to my table, carry my luggage to my hotel room, or drive me around in a yellow-colored Crown Victoria... but you don't get a tip if you deliver my overnight package, diagnose my condition and prescribe a cure, or fix the downed power line across the street. Why? In all of those examples, people are already being paid to do a specific job; why has society placed the burden of additional payment on certain services?
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Steve P » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:27 pm

Interesting thoughts Sean...unfortunately I believe any reply I could muster would be overly simplistic. I suppose I share your sentiment that it would be nice if (at a minimum) fair wages were emphasized and dependency on subjective gratuities DEemphasized...<sigh>...if only it were a perfect world. I'll be curious to see how this thread develops.
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Jeffrey D. » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:49 pm

Uh-oh.

Here we go again. :roll:
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Sean M » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:06 pm

annemarie m wrote:their are servers here in louisville that make the mandated minimum wage plus tips. :)


Paying an employee minimum wage sends some pretty strong messages:

1. The service you provide isn't important and isn't worth much money
2. We're a really cheap business that can't properly monetize our offerings to maximize profits
3. We as a company strive to meet "minimum" standards

Who wants to work for a place like this?

Also, paying anything less than minimum wage and expecting tips to subsidize an employee's earnings to Federally-minimum standards sends another pretty strong message: You don't work for us, you work for your customers. And while you might want your servers strongly believing that they "work for their customers," you certainly would most certainly still want them to be loyal to you, their employer.

Cheapness begets crap. I'm sorry, but no one at a restaurant that actually cares about its customers should be paying their employees minimum wages or making them rely on tips to survive. That's more akin to slavery than actual employment. I'd love to see the turnover rates on servers paid minimum wages vs. those who are paid well for the quality work that they perform.
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Steve P » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:10 pm

Jeffrey D. wrote:Uh-oh.

Here we go again. :roll:


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Personally I'm stuck in a hotel room in Oklahoma City, watching football, drinking beer and posting on the forum, so obviously I have nothing better to do. Bring it on :P
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Sean M » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:21 pm

Steve P wrote:I share your sentiment that it would be nice if (at a minimum) fair wages were emphasized and dependency on subjective gratuities DEemphasized


I wonder what's easier to change: improving wages, or removing the subjectivity from gratuities?

For the latter issue, I'll go out on an unnecessary limb and propose something new. A standardized, national server rating system. Here's how it would work:

Your bill comes with a card; it looks like a very simple report card. It lists a small number of items related to the server:

1. Attitude/demeanor
2. Attentiveness
3. Professionalism
...etc. Nothing outside of the server's control ("how fast my meal was brought to me") would be included here.

Beside each item is the rating: 1-5, 0-10, happy face/frowny face, whatever. Some objective way to indicate a rating/response is provided beside each item.

The score is tallied and is multiplied by two things: a regional standard value (this number accounts for cost-of-living in different parts of the country) and the number of people in the party. The resulting value directly correlates to the server's tip.

Crazy, I know, but a heck of a lot fairer than how things are done today. And, finally, servers get instant and specific feedback about how they performed with real data behind it --- not just a large or small gratuity. Could it work? Could an entire industry agree to such a process?

Almost certainly not, but I still thought it was a pretty cool idea.
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Kyle L » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:40 pm

I say we throw the entire thing away and do it the way Europe has been doing it for years.
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Mark R. » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:04 pm

Kyle L wrote:I say we throw the entire thing away and do it the way Europe has been doing it for years.

I will definitely second the motion. :roll: If it will do any good. :roll:
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Marsha L. » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:14 pm

Other things aside, a server who provides perfect service at Frisch's is NOT doing the same job as a server who provides perfect service at Vincenzo's. White-tablecloth servers have to polish silver and crystal, know enough about wines to suggest pairings, learn nightly specials, etc. My guess is that servers at Frisch's have some benefits available, and they probably make far more than the $2.13 an hour server minimum. On the other hand, the tips are much better at Vincenzo's.
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Suzi Bernert

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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Suzi Bernert » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:12 pm

When I worked as the Service Trainer for Frisch's here (1980), the servers made whatever was the rate for servers at the time. They had "side work", cutting pies, rolling silverware, making iced tea. While the money could be good, it was not on parr with white table cloth money. Benefits were availible and most of the wait staff was part-time. Firsch's had a reputation for long term employees and the original family that owned it was very caring. The company is much more "corporate" now and wonder if the loyalty is still there.

From my perspective, there are many views of taking the tipping out of the equation. The owners beleive they will have to double prices and lose business. The servers are split, some saying they want it, others wanting to keep things as they are. The customers are also split, some saying they will quit eating out if the prices go up, others wanting to change the system. I don't know the answer. :?
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Sean M » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:20 pm

Mark Head wrote:yawn


Don't let us keep you awake, by all means, Dr. Head. By the way, in case you don't recognize the partial name, we've met more than a couple of times at the School of Medicine. :wink:

Suzi Bernert wrote:The owners beleive they will have to double prices and lose business.


Owners would only need to raise prices by 15-20% to give their servers what's considered a "tip for good service" on every single meal. Wouldn't be the end of the world for most customers, especially when paired with the psychological impact of being told they no longer have to worry about tipping. As others have pointed out, it's done this way in parts of europe and everyone gets on just fine there.
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Charles W.

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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Charles W. » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:27 pm

My guess is that Mark yawned because a search of "tipping" on the forum here returns 17 pages worth of posts on the subject. It's been . . . discussed. But feel free to go on.
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Mark Head » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:24 am

Charles W. wrote:My guess is that Mark yawned because a search of "tipping" on the forum here returns 17 pages worth of posts on the subject. It's been . . . discussed. But feel free to go on.


Wow a blast from the past!

Charles is correct this is a well worn topic but please carry on and pardon my boorishness.
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Steve P » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:43 am

Mark Head wrote:
Charles W. wrote:My guess is that Mark yawned because a search of "tipping" on the forum here returns 17 pages worth of posts on the subject. It's been . . . discussed. But feel free to go on.


Wow a blast from the past!

Charles is correct this is a well worn topic but please carry on and pardon my boorishness.


:? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it play out the last time where before it was all said and done half the servers in the city were fired and the other half were making 40-some thousand dollars a year ? I also seem to recall that we voted to close down a half a dozen establishments who were rumored to be dipping their hands into the employees cookie jar.

No worries, it's always stimulating conversation.
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Re: Thoughts on tipping

by Paul Mick » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:43 am

Steve P wrote: :? Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't it play out the last time where before it was all said and done half the servers in the city were fired and the other half were making 40-some thousand dollars a year ? I also seem to recall that we voted to close down a half a dozen establishments who were rumored to be dipping their hands into the employees cookie jar.

No worries, it's always stimulating conversation.


And then there was the suggestion that the top pay bracket for servers being around $150k, and something about servers being good at washing hands... :?

That was a fun topic last time, but I'm afraid I don't have the stamina for a reprise at the moment. :D
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